Should Hitler have accepted Soviet peace offers in 1942 and 1943

In a word, YES!

First the Nazi Allied Armies would except for the Italian 8th Army would be 'lost' to Germany as they would be needed to guard the new border with a watchfull Russia. Of the 150 'German' divisions some of these are local formations of Balts, Slovenes and Russian who would need to stay in the east or Balkans. Then factor that most of these German divisions will need to stay in the east to keep Stalin honest. Lastly the condition of these troops must be considered, on average they are at 1/2 to 2/3 strength in men and equipment. This gives Germany 60-65 weak divisions or 35-40 full strength divisions. Sounds like alot doesn't it?

Consider Germany's dilema, Germany must guard from the Greek mainland to the Spanish border, then the Spanish border to Norway. Quite a distance for 40 full strength Divisions. The Allies can land anywhere there is enough beach. They can use Carrier aircraft for suppression instead of land based. I would Land in Denmark, cut off the peninsula and trap the Norway Garrison. Now I can cover from the air Normandy to east prussia and add the threat of Invasion into North Germany as well. Victory in 1946, more costly and maybe Berlin gets nuked, but Germany falls.

 

Combined British and US vs. German aircraft production was three to four times larger. Western allies could have turned Germany into rubble before having to put their feet on the beaches of Normandy. What happened to Japan could have happened to Germany.

 

In 42' and possibly in 43' the Allies aren't certainly ready for an ambitious invasion as Overlord, so the Axis powers have a substantial amount of "respite" before the main strike. I see continued aerial bombardment, but factories can be moved farther to the east, now with no Soviet threat of destroying or occupying them or the Romanian oil fields. The Axis is definitely better prepared against amphibious invasions. Landed Allies units can expect a long and bloody battle until they reach Berlin with no pressure coming from the east.

If the peace treaty is sincere, as I emphasized, there is no need for large military concentration on the borders. The Soviets are too preoccupied with rebuilding their land.

 

Not so easy. The Mustang and Tempest would have made more and harder work:
If Stalin respected the pact and supplies raw materials ... nickel, cobalt and molybdenum? ...more oil ...perhaps Germany has the Junkers Jumo 004... before and certainly with more endurance ...So, the Me 262 is deployed before and in more effective way...

The Lw should have been out of the picture ... The F-80 and the Vampire had no range enough to arrive there.

In the other hand ... Does anyone believe that Stalin would have complied with that part of the deal?

 

Where? Combat range of B29 is more than 5,000 km while the distance London (UK) - Brest (USSR) is just 2,000 km!

 

Is that a serious question?

 

I'm sorry Oktam, you have journeyed well past alternate history and deep into the realm of fantasy. Trust and sincerity are words missing from either dictator's dictionary. Look at the Soviet troop disposition before June 22, 1942, a massive deployment within a days march of the border. Stalin after already once being invaded without provocation or warning would hardly trust Hitler's word to be nice. Even if he did he would need large concentrations of troops just to keep his own people in line. Hitler for his part would assume that Stalin would do as he himself would, strike without warning and when Germany most exposed. For an example on how hitler could be paranoid about even vauge threats look at his deployments for his 'Zone of Destiny' Finland.

 

The number one dilemma for Hitler would still be paying for resources. I have no doubt that Stalin would strictly insist on a payment on delivery system and what Stalin wanted was what Germany also needed. Considering how badly Hitler was fooled on landing places it would probably easy to pull some more type stunts. Also even if Hitler got the Ukraine, Germany still would need time to properly develop the area for real exploitation.

 

Time for another "What-If" game?

Matrix Games - Across the Dnepr: Second Edition

 

The B-29 was almost exclusively used in the Pacific theater.

But pragmatism isn't. Why fight Hitler when the Allies can do all the dirty work? Why fight the Soviet Union again when it clearly isn't feasible to defeat her? When Hitler was sitting in the Berlin bunker, do you think he didn't curse the day he started Barbarossa? He maybe was paranoid, but he wasn't stupid.

 

I am hard pressed to cite a single practical decision by Hitler after August 1939.

Lets look at a map, the shortest possible line would run from the Baltic Sea along the eastern East Prussia - Prewar eastern Polish - 1939 eastern Rumanian border to the Black Sea. Well over a thousand miles of frontage to cover, just how many divisions do you think Hitler would trust to hold such a fronier?

 

Going after Russia was always Hitlers objective. To not go would have meant a complete denial of his beliefs. Hitler always knew that either he or the Soviets were to be destroyed.

 

Historically when Barbarossa started Germany was significantly behind in payments for Soviet resources. I can't see Stalin letting this go on much longer.

Not likely from what I've read.
In regards to nukeing Berlin. How easy is it going to be for the LW to intercept a B-29 at altitude? If the allies can't launch Overlord they are also likely to pick at isolatable German positions and Norway qualifies. That allows some bases significantly closer to Berlin.

For as long as he saw it in his best interest. But I don't see him giving away strategic materials for nothing either.

 

I don't see him stretching his forces over the entire border. The hypothetical piece treaty is signed by all Axis members; therefore the Romanians guard their border with their own armed forces, Hungarians theirs, and German theirs. The number of division I can't say, but the number is certainly less than what was active on the Eastern front in actuality. I don't see the need for large numbers, for any forces that would be necessary can now quickly come to the border. Strategically Germany would be in a better position in the case Stalin breaks the treaty and attacks. It would be the Battle of Tannenberg on a larger scale.

 

As there were no Soviet peace offers in 1942/1943,I am wondering why this thread still is lasting (after 54 posts)

 

About the claim that Stalin would stop his exports to Germany,because the Germans were behind in payments,I don't see that this would essential,unless the German economy would collaps without these Soviet exports,and,this did not happened:after 22 june 1941 (when the Soviet exports stopped),the German economy was growing .

 

Germany received enough for a while, the most important was food, the army survived on what it got locally. Gemany would have been in trouble with out food from the Soviets. The economy did not grow, the Germans simpy became more effecient

 

After 22 june 1941,Germany did not receive food from the Soviets,thus ....
And,without the raw materials from the Soviets,the Germans were able to produce more tanks,aircraft,ammunitions,.....

 

Was it? From what I gather the German economy had reached the point where only the Austrian and Check gold reserves would have kept it afloat much past 1940. Without access to raw materials, and given their shortage of foreign exchange, this was becomeing more an more of a problem the German economy was going to be hurting in the 40's.

Well they "liberated" a lot of food from occupied Soviet lands. So it's rather a question of definitions. Even in Germany food wasn't exactly plentiful during the war either.

But there are clear cases where the lack of resources forced them into subotimal production strategies, resulted in inferior products, or forced them to give up on certain products that would otherwise have been very welcome.