Sink The Bismarck. Who here has seen it?

Well, Admiral Boyington is indrectly in command of that base. As well as admirals on board of their flag ships. And it is admirals who direct the fleet and the ship's fire against an enemy. The captain of the ship just confirms the admiral's order... There are thosands of examples like that.

But I am just asking for concrete facts that admiral Lütjens' command habilty was worse than captain Lindemann. When? In which situations? Why? I want examples. This discussion started because of questioning the capabilities of admiral Lütjens, didn't it?

 

Well--the only situation that I will show you of Lutjens incapability to command was the situation in which the Bismarck was sunk.

 

I'm puzzled by this remark
It is true that Lutjens was responsible for the radio messages that gave away the position of the Bismarck. However the reason he made those messages was that he and the rest of the Bismarck's crew were under the mistaken impression that the RN was still tracking the Bismarck on radar. What they didn't know was that while the Bismarck was still picking up British radar transmissions on its equipment, the British were too far away to receive the echo.
Apart from this I can find no fault in any of Admiral Lutjens actions.
He and the Bismarck just ran out of luck.

 

Redcoat is more than right! The Bismarck being sunk has nothing to do with no man capabilities; it was just a matter of luck.

But even when the Bismarck was re-located because of Lütjens' unwired messages, the ship had already fleed from the British and had let behind admiral Tovey's fleet. It was just a matter of luck that the Royal Oak's Swordfishes could find the enemy and hit its rudder...

 

with reluctance I add my two cents for the evening on this convoluted thread....

first this has gotten to a certain point of reality and nothing to do with the film(s) of the protrayal of what "they" think happened.

there is no such thing as luck.......period ! Crap happens and it happened here in 1941 to the Bismark and her crew.
The KM ships were only equiped with the almost outdated Arado 196 which was a piece of junk with a limited range. The problem with the Prinz and Bismark is that the Arado pilots from both ships got lost.....and during this unsettled time both ships were without sufficient Destroyer escorts. The two ships split up which was a big no-no in the anals of sea warfare.......and I do mean anal.

So it was with a matter of time that the British were to close in and use their overwhelming forces to pull the Bismark in and destroy her. Plenty of sea/air worthy a/c to pinpoint the location of the ship.

 

Sorry redcoat but--I don't know how to make the statement clearer.

I'm not about to say he was a lousy Admiral--just not much of a Battleship commander.

His heart was in the right place but--his commands in that fight were not as they should have been because of his "wanting to prove something to the high command" which may have caused him to not be as focused on that fateful fight.

 

Well, I think took all the right decisions at every moment. I just would like you Carl, to specify, why you don't think the same as I do.

 

Puzzled again
Which fight are you talking about? The battle against the Hood and POW or the final battle, against KGV and Rodney?
What did he do wrong???

 

Erich reminded me of a question I also had about the film and the real event, and that is why did the Prinz Eugen leave the Bismarck and return to France ? Seems like the Prinz Eugen could have towed the Bismarck toward France and then they would have gotton some help from the air force and submarines perhaps. I know the Bismarck rudder was jammed but in desparation they could have fired a torpedo from the Prinz Eugen and removed the rudders and then towed the ship toward friendly waters. A long shot yes, but it is better than just leaving the big ship to die. Who ever made that decision to send off the Prinz Eugen was the person that messed up.

 

Agreed Ta ! I would like to ignore who was in command and just look at the several days events, in particular the German air coverage which was next to non-existant. The British had high altitude a/c which was to pinpoint most of the moves of the Bismark which led finally to her doom. Why the Prinz "had" to leave was and is the question as the Bismark needed all the help she could get......it almost appears that the Bismark's crew had too much pride and could stand alone from some written reports which is complete nonsense.

~E off for a long ride....

 

Redcoat--I am talking about the final battle.

What he did wrong partly was in not listeneing to his officers advice on fighting or not fighting this battle--such as from Kapitan Lindemann--for instance.

As for individual reasons--i'll leave that to you to come up with and argue about.

 

Because that's what the Bismarck's mission was about: attacking merchant convoys and diverting the British fleet from the Mediterranean, not sinking Royal Navy's warships. Since the Bismarck was losing fuel and needed some other reparations she couldn't sneak into the Atlantic and raid the convoys. The unharmed Prinz Eugen could do it and therefore, admiral Günther Lütjens made a genious move to fool counter admiral Wake-Walker commanding the Suffolk, Norfolk and the damaged Prinz of Wales. Lütjens ordered the Prinz Eugen to full-steam south while the Bismarck turned 180º heading north, straight to Walke-Walkeer's ships. Then, Lütjens turned again and headed southeast. Walke-Walker chased the Bismarck while the Prinz Eugen was quietly sneaking into the Atlantic.

Not really. She needed the help of the Luftwaffe. She didn't need another cruiser to suffer her same fate...

I don't think so. The mission was a priority and certainly, the Bismarck did have posibilities of reaching the French coast and the Luftwaffe's action range, since admiral Tovey's fleet was heading the opposite direction. It was only a matter of luck that the Swordfishes found the Bismarck and even luckier, that they hit her in the most vulnerable place possible.

Did he have an option? No rudder, maximum speed of 10-knots against two aircraft carriers, three battleships and more than six cruisers plus destroyers... What should Lütjens have done? Surrender the ship? I don't think so. The Kriegsmarineofficers and men were perfectly trained to fight to the last shell and sink with their ship. I can't imagine commodore Lindemann surrendering to admiral of the fleet Tovey...

 

soory Fried but I must disagree. There is always safety in numbers with an adequate AA defence and I have explained the hopelessness of the ships Arado's in examining the route of the British ships. The Bismark DID need the amount of protective coverage from the Prinz and what Destroyers that may have been able to come to it's aid. And I still think their was personal pride involved. The career of many of the KM leaders shows it during strange and yet foolish attempts in the future in Finnish waters in 1944. That is another story though.....
The Bismark and all the KM ships during 1941 needed a solid air cover which I agree on but it did not happen as history proves

 

No, Erich. More AA guns were not going to help the Bismrack to fight Sir John Tovey's fleet. And remember that the Swordfishes were so bloody old and flew so bloody low that the supern modern AA guns of the Bismarck were completely ineffective. The Prinz Eugen's AA guns would have been as ineffective and her small guns would have been also ineffective against the enormous fleet chasing them. It is far better that she fleed, sneaked into the Atlantic and raided the convoys. And the Bismarck was incredibly successful in achieving the goal of diverting the Royal Navy. Grand admiral Raeder needed as less British ships around Crete as possible at that time. He needed as less British ships raiding Rommel's supplies as possible and he needed as less escorts as he could get to have his U-boats working. All of them worked quite nicely.

 

Once the rudders jammed, it was out of both Lutjens, and Lindemann's hands. All that was left for them to do, was die bravely.

TA 152

As Friedrich H has already stated, the Bismarck spit up from the Prinz Eugen so the cruiser could continue with the mission of attacking British convoys. The Bismarck had been damaged and needed to return to port.
The Bismarck was faster than any RN battleship, therefore she should have been able to outrun any RN ship capable of taking her on. So the decision to spit up made good sense.
But even if the Prinz Eugen had been with the Bismarck the only thing she could have done after the rudders were hit, was take off the crew and sink the Bismarck herself. There is no way she could tow a battleship in heavy weather with a RN battlefleet racing over the horizon ( not to mention the RN Swordfish torpedo bombers)

 

Redcoat is right, even with the Bismarck losing fuel there was no ship in the British fleet who reached more than 30 knots to chase the Bismarck. Only the aircraft carriers and the sunk Hood were faster...

 

Sorry but--the argument isnt working and I know you, Redcoat--especially know what i'm referring to. Your trying to make something with almost no meaning into a big argument and I ain't wasting anymore time on it.

Not trying to be rude but--this is going only in a circle.

[ 26. June 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

and that my friends was enough.....again I point out the ridiculousness of not having sufficient Luftwaffe air defences. And for the KM there was also some threat of British subs. Myabe the Prinz could helped evacuate the crew at least we wouldn't have the record of so many freezing to death in the icy waters on account of bogus info that U-booten were on their way to the Bismark

 

You mean like the Bismarck

Sorry if I have upset you, I didn't mean to , but I honestly didn't understand the point you were trying to get across.
OK, let's leave it be.
All the best

 

Hi Redcoat--i'm not angry and you don't owe me an apology.

I just simply don't have the time necessary to continue in here when i have so much more that I have to finish in other threads.

Yesterday I was here from 10:00 Am till 9:00 PM and I still wasn't finished with what I needed to do. Case in point--the thread I started that was to list all 80 victories by the Red Baron in ww1.

I finally got that finished about an hour or so ago