Sir Arthur Harris-Chief of Bomber Command-War Criminal?

I see my humble assessment is basically correct.

UPPS Edit: The Halifax, wasn't built in modules? Confusion, I should not relay in my memory... : Coach builders were diverted to aircraft production ... weren´t ?

... In any case ... do you know the theory of communicating vessels?

 

Sure, the Halifax was built in modules - the wings at Cricklewood were entrained up to Radlett for mating with fuselages......but they still didn't build any ships there. In any case, landing craft ( such as the LCV(p) ) were constructed almost entirely from wood. Shipbuilders in the 1940s weren't really geared for woodworking......and before anyone ( whether Cervantes or Confucius ) says 'Mosquito' the Mossie production facilities were also a long way from any coast.....and every Mosquito was needed for its primary purpose......

And if Blaise Pascal were an active member of this Forum, I'd suggest that he gets his facts right before bending them to fit his theory.......

 

The first Meteor (Merlin tank engine) was fitted in a Crusader in 1941, it was too powerful for the tank in the trials, production of the Meteor for the Cromwell started in 1942 but suffered delays with the first ones being issued in 1943. So they did have Meteors fitted into tanks in 1943.

The Tempest first flew in 1942, it was developed as a result of the poor high altitude performance of the Typhoon so would not have been designed prior to that. It took a long time to get into service because of flaws with the engines (it was designed with five different engines in mind in case there were problems with design and production). The Fury was a further development of the Tempest so had to follow that.

 

I wasted an excellent opportunity to not write. On the other hand, selfishly, I reviewed my reading on these issues.

It seems to build boats is somewhat simpler than building airplanes ... especially for Coach builders.
The Centaurus was available in 1942 .. It didn´have problems and gave an excellent result, when it was installed ... very late. It would have been nice to have a FW 190 on the right side ... in late 1942. The Komet was developed from the Cromwell ... also too late. Lack of engineers or lack of proper specifications?

I must admit that blame Harris is probably exaggerated.

 

Quite right.....and the Typhoon suffered major problems with carbon monoxide leaking into the cockpit and also an unfortunate propensity for the tail to fall off under stress well into 1942. These difficulties were largely overcome by dint of some very courageous test flying.

However, for the purposes of this thread, such trifling details can I'm sure be overlooked.....

 

I agree with that! Once you enter the ring as a kick-boxer you risk to be beaten, dearly. What did they think? (Or by words of Sir Winston Churchill: What kind of people do they think we are?)

I don't know why people accuse Harris of being a criminal. He has served his army and has just obeyed orders like all other good officers did, that's all. There is nothing wrong about that. His contribution to the rightfull end of war is immeasurable, both for western Allies as well as to USSR. To Germans too: after the victory they got rid of Nazis.

 

The Tempest had 5 different engines not just the Centaurus,

Different mark numbers were allocated to each of the six prototype/engine combinations: the Mk I (HM599) was powered by a Sabre IV, the Mk II (LA602 and LA607) were powered by Centaurus IV radial engines, the MK III (LA610) used a Griffon IIB, the Mk IV (LA614) had a Griffon 61 and the Mk V (HM595) had a Sabre II.

The Tempest MkII, the Centaurus installation was not without problems.

Tempest MkIII/IV (led to the Fury)

Tempest V

The Typhoon was issued as a counter to the FW190 in the low level role despite its flaws.

The Comet was supposed to be a further development of the Cromwell that mounted a modified 17pdr (the 77mm), design did not start until 1943 and fell foul of the fact that the chassis of the Cromwell could not take the new weapon, this meant a pretty much total redesign (as well as the designing and issuing the stop gap Challenger). British lacking in the development of tanks during WW2 has very little to do with its aircraft capabilities, usage and designs though.

 

that's the question sir ... How many resources were wasted on the heavy bombers? That´s include the development.
The Japanse developed the Ki100 from the Ki 61 in months ..they successfully installed a wide radial engine in a narrow aiframe. As I know the Centaurus didn´t have the problems of the Sabre, in fact I read many of the Sabre problems were solved with Bristol valves. Typhoon was designed to be a medium-high altitude interceptor... but only worked well at low altitude... The development of four engine bombers had so many problems too, but I recall, they were given PRIORITY.
And such a good part of that effort was used just to demolish homes.

Not discusion about bravery of the men but the wisdom of the commandant.

 

Another tiresome little detail I'm afraid - the 'commandant' had nothing to do with aircraft production. Play the blame game instead with the Air Council and the Ministry of Aircraft Production.

 

The Centaurus had problems with itse installation in the Tempest II, the engine may have been ok in other mounts but it was not in the Tempest II , the first flight of the modified mounting (using German ideas from the FW190 that solved some major problems) in a Tempest II was mid 1943.

 

I imagine that guy : " I know you say you need more planes against the U boote, but my boys are winning the war!!! Give me more planes, give me the new RADAR (the magnetron valve fall in german hands ...) and assume the losses. "
To destroy the Nazi industrial resources, at least he had to shoot them, not the civilians. He made to spend so many valuable resources. And example:

No one bombed the only one batteries factory I posted the photo, I guess is in this thread...it was very close to the city, there were houses and civilians to ruin... Was he reponsable or not? It's not a rhetorical question.

 

When was Arthur Harris knighted ? Was it for his wartime contributions ? They don't bestow a Knightood on a war criminal...

 

That's an interesting quotation...I was just wondering which source it came from ?

 

In my limited scope (Y really love the UK archives) :

HARRIS asking for more planes.

(Catalogue ref: AIR 16/487)

The goal was the city itself. Wasn´t it? It really served the war effort? I doubt it. But I guess Harris was obeing orders , better "directives". IMHO After the war nobody wanted to take responsibility for what had been done... except Harris.

 

You haven't answered my question - where did the original quotation which you cited come from ?

 

What a stupid question. This is a discussion that I don’t understand at all. Of course he was not! Neither was Spaatz. They did what was expected of them. They followed orders. As so many German officers did during the war. Who was the war criminal when Luftwaffe raised my home town (Bodø) to the ground? Who was responsible when Coventry was devastated? Rotherdam? Warsaw? And all he other towns and cities bombed by the Luftwaffe?
Totally off the mark! But let us, for the sake of the discussion continue.
To say that it was “wasted resources building up Bomber Command” is totaly off the mark! We can not take one part of the equation and put it for it self. There is more to it than that. What about the resources that Germany had to put into effect to counter Bomber Command? There has been written thousands of pages about this. That mean if you considred looking.
The anglo-american bomber offensive reduced Luftwaffe’s fighter force to shambles and paved the way for the invation in June 1944.
Oh yes! Then there is those who says that the German war production continued to increase. Of course it did. When the Nazis lost at Stalingrad, Göbels spoke about “total war” in one of his infamous speeches. The problem was that the Briatin, USA and the Sovjet Union had vaged “total war” for some time and Nazi Germany was lagging behind. They stopped to late producing consumer goods, and it would cost them dearl. The bomber offensive vaged by USA and Britain had forced Germany to begin dispersing its production of crucial war- material and –machines. What once made Germany to what it was, the centralizing of production (one example Ruhr), now was in reverse. It had to decentralize its production. What about the cost? This was not done cheap and Speer had some headaches while organizing this considerable effort. Fighter aircraft, submarines, aero engines, tanks, locomotives and so on. It all had to be dispursed from the vunrable, big cities. What did this cost Nazi Germany? At leat it cost them long, vunrable transort. An endless loss of production because of the loss from the production site to assambly yard. Yes! They managed to produce more fighters, aero engines and tanks. The big picture don’t leave them any chance any how. The allied bomber offensive also targeted everything connected with fuel, oil and lubricants. The so called “P.O.L” offensive. Petrol, oil and lubricants. Synthetic oil refineries, coal mines to feed these refineries, railways to ship the coal from the Ruhr areas to the plants, canals which feeded barges with cude oil from Hungary and Romania to the refineries was bombed and mined. So! If the production of war machinery, like fighters and tanks increased, there was no fuel to make them operational. New pilots did not have enough hours in the air and were easy meat for allied pilots. The once so mighty army did not have fuel to manouvre on the battle field, and was reduced to a static defence force. And people still asking if the bomber effort was worth while?
Ah! Almost forgot Dresden. The all mighty allied war crime. In February 1945, Dresden was a major German arms manufacturing city. No more, no less. It was also a political and military centre in East-Germany with railway yards and factories. The Russians wanted help with their winter offensive. Not at least with interdicting German forces moving from the west-front to the east. They wanted a “bomb line” from Berlin to Leipzig, including Dresden. Destroying as many marshalling yards as possible. This was exactly what happened. Harris was taken by suprice when he was ordered to attack the city. Some historians even says he drove to London to check if this was correct. It was. The 8[SUP]th[/SUP] AF should have attacked on the 13[SUP]th[/SUP] , but weather put this plan into nothing. So Bomber Command sent 5 Group in the evening of 13[SUP]th[/SUP] February with devastating effect. Later in the night “the rest of Bomber Command “ arrived, before 8[SUP]th[/SUP] AF continued with the area attack on the 14[SUP]th[/SUP]. This attack was not ordered by Harris. It was ordered by “people in much higher and important places than me”, as Harris himself said. Here we can include Churchill and Roosevelt, the Combined Chief of Staff and so on. It was a descision taken far above Harris or Spaatz.

Was it a war crime act? I say no. It was a legal target. An industrial city. A political centre with a rail way centre. What more?

All the best,
Bengt, Bodo, Norway

 

My written English sucks! Sorry about that! I'll try to be better next time

Bengt

 

Look...If Harris is to be deemed a war criminal so be it...He won't be by the way...its not realpolitic. And with him all national bomber force commanders...Then we must look at artillery commanders and any civilian locations purposely targetted. Hey don't stop there, bring it up to date..Todays cities being artilleried and phosphered to hell and back with measly excuses of hiding amongst civilians. We are now up to date.
Spanish civil war and the bombing of civilian entities. Refugee bombing and shooting from the air in France and the low countries 1940...Submarine sinking of civilian ships, neutral ships...hospital ships...

War is hell...Its even worse if you leave the gloves on and accept one side has the right to do as they please without reaping the whirlwind.

 

If we talk of Dresden alone for example.you have to ask yourself one question,was there a railway or soldiers being transferred though the city.? If there was,it's a target.Despite Churchill,Portal ands the rest of the cronies distancing themselves ,Harris had the balls and trusted in hiss aircrews to carry out orders.Cheers,Lee.

 

Collateral casualties are one thing, aiming civilian targets on purpose is another.

The former is not a war crime, the latter definitely is - no matter which side does it or who has done it first.

This is year 2012. How can anybody have a different opinion on this matter?!