Soviet blunders in World War 2

I think they'd still have been surrounded in some way and forced to surrender, however I have no knowledge of this battle. :cry:

 

Remember though, that in a dictatorship like the Stalinist regime many soldiers did not like what had happened in the purges. Not every soldier, those who had family and friends dissappear in the night, would fight to the bitter end for Stalinist Russia. Many probably didn't fight with much determination thinking that the Germans had gotten that far that fast; what could stop them?

It's just a thought.

 

Indeed, it is hard to argue that the Soviet army could have done any better, as they were obviously not ready for war in 1941 and their morale was severely crippled.

 

soviet tactics were a disaster here is an example:

for you to have a dog tag, and for your family to be informed of your death, you had to join the communist party.

the point is:
THEY HAD NO RESPECT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL SOLDIER. they threw them away like we would a tissue! They wasted men in sucidal charges, and right after the Germans counterattacked and took 30 more miles of thier territory.

also, the russians made stupid descicions at the end of the war. when they were crossing the river (cant remeber name)to get into germany, they turned all the dirt into mud from thier artillery barrage. Thier tanks couldnt move!

 

The wasteful command of soldiers is not Soviet or Russian doctrine, it's Asian. Being a continent of numbers, the countries there anciently used soldiers as scrap wood in wartime: many Asian armies did not arm their front row, for they were only there to clear the mines and obstacles. I'm not saying this to justify the policy, but you need to understand this culture: there was always a million more to be drafted.

 

Good point

Considering many of the Soviet soldiers at Kiev (if not all of them) were Ukranians - one of the worst enemies of the Stalinist regime, especially since the famine and the mass purges - they would've happily surrendered to the Germans, expecting a warm welcome from the Communist tyranny

Just like all those other Ukranian civilians that hurled flowers at the German Panzers as they came through in 1941, seeing them as 'liberators'

Then they get massacred by the Nazis

If only they had known what they faced for the next four years

 

Three years. The Ukraine was cleared of Nazis by the end of 1944.
It is a good point though that many of the eastern Soviet states welcomed the Germans as liberators and even fought for them, like the Estonians did in 1944.

 

i don't think anybody's pointed out that a huge number of soldiers died and were taken prisoner because it was either fight to the death or retreat and be shot for being a coward...or you could surrender to the germans and get thrown into a hole in the ground along with a thousand other russian prisoners and starve to death...given the three options what would you choose?

 

Are you sure its Asian doctrine, or just Communist, assuming everyone will willingly waste thier lives for the love of the motherland?

 

I agree with Roel, it´s very much a cultural phenomenon. You would find the same disrespect for human lifes in pre-revolutionary Russia. And Communism has nothing to do with it. The "ism" which dominated the Soviet Union during WWII was Stalinism, not Communism.

 

The disrepect of human lives in pre-revolutionary Russia came from the economic system. 95% or more of the population were surfs, something that the Europeans had moved on from hundreds of years ago. The people in charge did not care about them at all. Then, when Lenin took over, he preached about a land where everyone was important. By Stalin's time, that was loooong gone.

You're right about the Stalinism and not Communism, though, Skua. He was in complete control and cared little for others.

But, after your post Skua, I ask Roel again, was it just the Russians who had no disrespect for thier people, or was it all of Asia?

 

It was all of Asia. It was the same with Chinese armies, that were never smaller than 100,000 men throughout history anyway; it was the same with Korean armies that had three rows of attackers of which only the third was expected to survive; it was the same with the Japanese army which considered it a virtue to die, rather than live in shame for surrendering. In all these countries there are just so many people that a policy of waste hardly affects the population.
One example: during the rule of Mao Tzetung, over 60 million people died of unnatural causes; in China today there are still over 1,600,000,000 people. In building the Great Wall of China thousands of years ago, according to legend, a man died for every meter of wall built and this thing is 4,500 kilometers long.

 

I agree about China and Korea, but concerning Japan I disagree. The Japanese viewed it as shame to surrender because of their honor code, not because the government did not respect the common people.

 

Honour to the death is technically a waste of people, though you are right about the difference in perception.

 

Voluntarily killing yourself because you lost a battle is stupid, not honorable. Going down with ship (or plane, or island) only deprives you of giving leaders a cahnce to learn from their mistakes.

 

What you have to understand is that Japan needed that rigid society. There country has zero resources, and without the ridigness, then many of their precious resources. Japanese, born with that and living with that, feel it a waste of themselves to lose a battle, to not bring honor to thier ancestral gods.

 

Again, canambridge, it is a difference in culture which needs to be respected as that, and not proclaimed stupid offhand by western standards. It is why we think their TV shows are disgusting and show them as if to say, look, now THAT's sick; it's a difference in culture. The Japanese think it is a great virtue to be able to withstand pain and suffering, and you win great honour in their eyes by doing so.

 

They actually have a museum dedicated to its Kamikaze warriors in Kagoshima, the Chiran Kamikaze Memorial Museum.

It´s like Roel wrote, it´s an entirely different culture. Even today.

 

I respect the Japanese people and culture, I've been fortunate enough to make a few trips there. But I'm sorry, just because it was part of the culture dosen't exempt it from being stupid, especially in a military sense.
I don't believe it is necessary to agree with everything done under the heading of cultural differences. And there are plenty of strange and stupid Western culture practices I don't agree with either.

 

Culture is a very powerful force, and changing it enough in Japan's case to stop the suicides will probably take many years, not just the 15 or so they were involved in WWII.