Soviet Manchuria offensive.

actually the Poles invaded the Soviets first about 1923 and made it to Kiev before being repelled. The Soviets got close to Warsaw before being defeated.

 

Surely 1941 to 44 was a limited attack on the USSR by Finland (in conjunction with Axis Powers), admittedly being careful to stop at the old Border?

I picked up a book several years ago concerning the 1918 mess between the Soviets, Fins (and British) and frankly got so confused about White and Red Fins (and British at one stage co-operating with Soviets) etc etc, that it is surely a bit of an exaggeration to say that the Soviets attacked Finland - seemed to me that there was just as much traffic in the opposite direction.

 

And...Here...We..Go!

 

Kind of attacked. The Finns declared their independence and a group of communist sympathizers tried to seize power resulting in a civil war. The Soviets sent aid to the reds and the Germans to the whites, but Im not sure that the Soviets actually sent troops

 

In 1941 it was the soviets who shot at first - again. When Germany started the Barbarossa on 22nd June Finland declared herself neutral - which of course would have been extremely hard to maintain since there were 30.000 soviet troops in Hanko peninsula close to Helsinki and 21 soviet divisions more behind the new, closer eastern border. In Lapland there were 40.000 German troops on 21st June and 27.000 more the following day - which were not allowed to attack the USSR.

Soviets started bombing and shooting, without declaration of war, (mainly) Finnish military targets from 06.05 AM on 22nd without any Finnish previous attack. Finland protested. The soviets continued their bombing raids unsuccesfully on 24th. On 25th the soviets launched new aerial attacks on 15 Finnish towns and cities with 500 planes, killing over 100 Finnish civilians. Finland stated that the country was again in a state of war and declared the war on 26th. The Finnish army had been in defensive formation and had to change it for (counter) attack.

First German bombings from Finnish area started at noon on 25th. The first Finnish minor land attack with one division only was launched on 29th in Lapland together with the Germans and the second one with two divisions on 1st July. The Finnish main attack started on 10th July - 19 days after the Barbarossa and the soviet first bombings.

On Karelian Isthmus (towards Leningrad) Finland stopped at the old border. In Eastern Karelia however Finland went further away to finish soviet bombings and to prevent new soviet land attacks from there, to secure a more defendable border line: the Gulf of Finland - lake Laatokka (Ladoga) - lake Ääninen (Onega) - the White Sea (, and to liberate the Karelian people, close relatives to the Finns, whose ancient home area had been occupied by the (mainly) Russians).

In 1918 the bloody Finnish Independence/Civil War would not have started at all, had not the soviet Russia actively agitated the Finnish Reds for it, given the example, armed them, partly led them in the war and also fought along them.The German involvement did not start until later (against the will of Mannerheim, the commander ot the FDF, "the Whites". The goverment asked for the German help behind his back) and had nothing to do with the start of the war.

The Finnish volunteers fought in the Eastern Karelia with the (White) Karelians AFTER the Finnish Independence War (which the soviets/Finnish Reds had started). There was no legal government in (soviet) Russia then and the Karelians had as good right for their freedom as any other nationality in the former Russian Empire.

The conclusion: The USSR attacked Finland in 1918, 1939 and 1941!

 

There were about 40.000 Russian troops in Finland when the war broke out on 28th January 1918. In the north, which was controlled by the legal White government, the Russian were sfiftly disarmed. In the south however some of the Russians fought along with the Finnish Reds and the soviet regime sent more from Leningrad.

It has been estimated that app. 7-10.000 Russians took actively part to the war in Finland. The total strengths of both the legal White army and the rebellious Red army varied from 50.000 to 90.000.

 

As an aside....I think we in my small town in UK have one of the only ww1 memorials that dates from 1914 to 1920 whereas I think all the rest are 1914 to 1918...

Many folk remark on this, If I am around I'll tell em....Its because the Worcs regt were still at war in the white army fighting the Soviets.

 

Thanks boys - I think I will have another try at sorting out my brain and reading up this history!! Nothing is ever simple in Finland's wars!!

 

I could understand a Soviet attack upon Finland when there were 67,000 German troops in Finland at the start of Barbarossa. The assurance that the German's 'could not attack' is one no sane country could count upon.

Put in another context, if on December 7th, 1941 there were 67,000 Japanese troops in say Columbia, but Columbia protested their neutality, I suspect the US would not take the threat to the Panama Canal lightly, nor accept at face value, Columbia's state of neutrality.

If Finland truly wished no part in a German-Soviet war, then they needed to say Thanks, but no thanks to any German troops in Finland.

 

Damn....Now I'll have to comment...I just wanted to like Belasars post...but done my limit...So there you go...liked your post...I'm actually standing and saluting, but you'll have to take my word for it.

 

I did indeed feel a disturbance in the Force.

 

Yes. Unfortunately at some point (as you wrote before) they also fought WITH the soviets AGAINST the Finnish volunteers trying to help the (white) Karelians either to gain their independence too or to join Finland. The British were afraid of the spreading of the German influence to Russia by the Finns - which however would not have happened.

This misguided choosing of sides was partly guilty for the end result: russification/sovietification of Eastern Karelia, mass killings of the (East-)Karelians and the near extiction of their culture and them as a nationality.

 

Can not agree with you, unfortunately, since you don't seem to fully understand the situation.

1. There were already 30.000 soviet troops next to Helsinki well before the Germans. It did not give right for the Germans to attack Finland.
2. The German troops in Finland either before the Barbarossa (40.000) or right after it started (in total 67.000) did not attack the USSR at Barbarossa. It was not just a question about any promise.
3. The USSR did not attack against those German troops in Northern Finland, but against Finland - which declared herself neutral. After that the USSR launched multiple attacks on Finland again - against the civilian targets, killing FINNISH civilians and not a single GERMAN soldier.

In your example there should have been already 30.000 US troops next to Bogota a year before the Japanese. After the arrival of those Japanese troops the USA should have attacked Colombian civilians - not the Japanese troops.

We really could not stay out of the Soviet-German war, because we could not say no-thanks to those soviet troops in Finland (or behind the border) - which were getting ready for finishing what they started in the Winter War. If Germany had not attacked the USSR, the USSR would have attacked Finland again - most likely sooner than later.

The German troops and other aid gave a much needed relief from the constant and very real soviet threat. To say no-thanks to Germany would have meant either being left alone at the mercy of the USSR (you know, what happened to the Baltics...) or becoming a new target for Germany.

 

I make no claim to being an expert on Soviet-Finnish relations or military history, in that re-guard I will defer to you, but I am able to make reasonable judgements about common sense.

These 30,000 Soviet troops near Helsinki, were there ever since the end of the Winter War and had not moved one meter closer. While they did present a threat, it was one that had not altered during this period. Further with a Massive German attack in the offing, it seems most unlikely that they would or could move until the German attack was contained.

If Russia was hell bent upon Finland's destruction then it made absolutely no sense to end the Winter war on any terms other than a unconditional Finnish surrender.

I grant you that Finnish troops fought valiantly and with consuement skill, inflicting great casualties upon Russia, but to be fair Russia could afford to take such casualties for years on end to effect the desired result. They had no other commitments to worry them.

Finland was exhausted and could not continue this unequal contest, the Soviets had what they wanted, so both sides came to an agreement to end the war and create a new border.

The presence of these German troops did absolutely nothing to prevent the loss of Finnish lives, indeed how could they as they were posted far to the north unable to offer any aid or succor to Finland's population centers. All they did was serve as a provocation to Stalin.

Finland could have accepted the weapons and perhaps a modest number of "advisers" to help familiarize the Finnish army in their use. Anything more was waving red meat in front of a hungry bear (pun intended).

The argument that Finland had to accept German combat formations or face invasion (from Germany) is ludicrous. Sweden felt no compulsion to accept German troops, neither did Switzerland, or Spain or Portugal or Turkey. Yet you posit that Germany was going to effect an Amphibious landing on Finland unless they knuckled under?

What happened to the Finnish grit and unwillingness to back down to an aggressor?

German forces attacked the Soviet Union from East Prussia, Occupied Poland, Hungary and Rumania, the presence of German combat troops in Finland, even if they were currently not conducting offensive operations, would naturally seem a probable threat to a nation fighting for its life.

Turkey and Sweden, with close relations to Nazi Germany, managed to stay out of a war with Russia. Japan, with an actual political and military alliance with Germany avoided a war with Russia until Germany was completely defeated, and then only as an obligation asked of them by the Western Allies. Do you claim the Western Allies would demand Russia attack Finland in some form of payback for Lend-Lease?

I cannot condone civilian casualties, but attacking Finnish targets did represent the most cost effective manner to force the Finnish government to renounce any agreement allowing German combat troops to stage within Finnish territory.

Finland, of any country, understood just how paranoid Russian's can be about border security, so the position that combat forces of a nation (Germany) attacking Russia in Finland (bordering Russia) could not be seen as any thing other than a defacto declaration of war by Finland on Russia.

It ain't pretty, but it is the way wars are fought.

 

Russia didn't have any "obligation". Actually, Russia had a neutrality treaty with Japan that was still on effect. The interesting thing of this is that the Western Allies, which were very eager to make critics of Hitler's broken promisses before the war, encouraged the Soviet state to also break a pact. I'm not any naive individual, however, neither I want to act as a moralist here. It's just a constatation of the cynicism in foreign politics.

They could have demanded, as well as they demanded free elections in Poland. Stalin would not give a s*** to that.

 

Japan was on very shaky ground themselves considering they never declared war on anyone before starting military operations. The comment about the west demanding war against Finland was rhetorical, of course they would not for any reason.

 

It would have been very odd if the West had demanded war against Finland. After all the hole world had been backing Finland against the soviets during the Winter War.

Even during the Continuous War (1941-44) the world countries mostly realised the nature of Finland's decisions and her situation. Only a handful of countries ever declared war on Finland while the majority of them went into war against Germany, Apart of the USSR (and "Ukraine and "Byelorussia") only the UK (together with her dominions Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and India) and Checkoslovakia (in exile) declared war on Finland - mainly to show support to Stalin at the time, when nothing substantial could be done. No actual fighting after the declaration was done though.

On the other hand it would have perhaps been better, if for example the USA had indeed declared war on Finland. Then she/the other possible participants would have also taken part to the peace negotiations and maybe limited the outragious soviet looting demands . Unfortunately the Brittish were either unable or unwilling to do so.

 

I appreciate your aim for impartiality and objectivity. On the other hand it can also be noticed, that it is sometimes difficult to fully understand the desperate situations of the small European countries and the difficult choices - or rather lack of them - they were facing - especially, when looking from a perhaps a little bit "high moral horse" perspective of a major Allied world power, whose enemy was the "ultimate evil" of Germany.

Every country fighting against Germany is more or less still felt as one of the good guys, regardless of the fact that the USSR was at least as evil as Germany - and to many countries much more evil - as well as the source of the worlds most lethal ideology ever.

 

duplicate

 

Those troops hadn't moved YET! It was common knowledge that the soviets were planning and preparing a new attack on Finland. E.g. in spring 1941 the German Embassy In Helsinki was preparing for a fast evacuation to Stockholm, because the soviet attack was seen imminent.

After the Winter War the soviets had demanded Finland to build a new East-West railway line to Northern Finland, purpose of which could only be to help the soviet invaders to cut Finland half. The Aland Islands between Finland and Sweden had to be left without any defence - to make the soviet invasion easier. The USSR was making new, increasing demands month after month, constantly violating the Finnish air space and capturing Finnish border guards from the Finnish side, New railway lines and roads towards Finland were being built, only possible purpose of which could be launching attacks. Building new airports (90 altogether) next to Finland served the same purpose. New soviet troops were concentrated behind the border at the time, when the Finnish army had only 13 Brigades.

It was only the soviet attack everybody was sure of. The German possible attack was much more uncertain - for the soviets too. The Germans kept the Finns in the shadows by not telling their real, definite intentions. The Finns were told about the "ongoing negotiations" between Germany and the soviets and how the Finnish interests were being taken care of as well. Those negotiations did not exist.