Stalingrad - Germans that never surrendered

The original photo (top) was altered (bottom) by editing the watch on the soldier's right wrist.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_a_flag_over_the_Reichstag

no comment on this one

 

Too draw conclusions on such a global matter from a couple of photographs is rediculous. Especially when you consider that the reason those photos are as available as they are is due to their propoganda value/usage.

 

Excellent observation Skip. The guy must have stolen that watch from German civilian. ... or the Russians invented Photoshop in 1945.

 

Never noticed that that before. Well played sir!

 

As a matter of fact photo montage was invented as early as 1850 but it was popularized by a Russian artist called Rodchenko in 1917 for the Soviet Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Rodchenko
Another pioneer was El Lissitzky , who was also Russian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Lissitzky

Thefore the Russians were quite ahead with photo altering techniques, way before WW2 .

The other nation which was ahead with these techniques was ... Germany (see the Dadaïst movement related articles) . This was later twisted, re-used, adpated and emphasized by Goebel's Propaganda Staffel

one famous picture is the one they used is Churchill inspection a Thompson gun turned into a Mafia man.















a 1943 anti Soviet poster:






and a Soviet anti Nazi poster





http://pictureshistory.blogspot.fr/2010/08/soviet-russian-propaganda-posters.html

 

I seam to recall seeing pictures of both German and Soviet dignataries where you could watch some of the figures dissapear as the picture "evolved".

 

Why do you think they edited out the watch? Certainly it must have had some implications. As for how it was aquired the fact that it was edited out would seem to me to indicate that whoever ordered the edit thought that there were implications as to the acquisition being "irregular". Who the other party was is a very open question though. Off the cuff I'd give it less than a 50% chance of it being a German civilian.

 

Ah, propaganda, propaganda... Eastern and Western.

But let's get back to jokes of ordinary people of BerIn. In the final, bitter days of fighting in April of 1945, there was a popular joke: “The fighting won't stop until Goring fits into Goebbels's trousers.”
Now, three questions to our expert for staged photos: Skip and Skip only:

(1) Is the photo below staged and
(2) why not.
(3) Do these priests have watches on their left hands?

 

Probably because wristwatches were not common items in the Soviet Union during the 40's.

"During the Soviet-Nazi pact period (1939–41) the Soviet citizens' primary interaction with the outside world was with the newly occupied borderlands of Finland, the Baltic States, Bessarabia, and Poland.Goods considered scarce in the USSR such as watches, bicycles, clothes and food products were plentiful in these regions. The occupying Red Army was fascinated with the diversity of goods at low prices. Viewed as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to acquire them, soldiers bought large quantities of these goods to send back to their families in the USSR."

I suspect it was just a standing order; "Edit out all watches!"

 

@GS
I guess you realize that the priests are German, saluting "Sieg Heil!"

I'm sure that Skip would kow answers without your interferrence.

 

????

I was answering lwd, not you.

 

Ah, I see now and I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Tamino,

People are being tentative with you because they don't want to come off abrasive, but the truth is you are just plain wrong. Otto's intentions or the fact you posted two photos are not proof of your argument. The idea that the Russians saved the 6,000 Germans of the 90,000 captured if frankly ridiculous. I don't claim to be a super historian, but it is very well documented that the fighting in the East was a no quarter affair, and the Russians weren't anything close to merciful toward the German soldiers or German civilians. No one is saying that the Germans was merciful either, and I've never heard anyone other than you say the Russians were merciful. Hell, Stalin wasn't even merciful to his own people. I guess if you compare Hitler's plans of genocide against Stalin actually allowing Germany to exist, then at best you can say the Russians were the lesser of two evils.

It's obvious this Red Army Mercy theory is an idea that you will not sway from, and I respect your ability to hold that position, but it's fairly clear this is a minority view not supported by the historical record. And by minority I mean one person. You.

 

@O.M.A. I do indeed appreciate your opinion and respect it. But let me further support my view.

First, I will give you an abstract example to consider: imagine Michael Corleone (a character from movie Godfather) instructing Neri, his hitman, to let his brother Fredo get away with it. Given the circumstances and people involved, along with their beliefs, that would have been an act of mercy.

However, I do understand obvious opposition to my idea. Psychologically, it is hard to hear ideas different from those you hear every day. Ideas in direct collision with widely accepted "truth". Human mind prefers comfortable, acceptable truth.

Once again: the Red army had an opportunity and means to retaliate if they just wished but they choose forgiving treatment of those who could be treated even harsher. Obviously, the only obstacle in our conversation is wording (i.e. the use of word mercy), not the essence of what I am saying.

 

Not a very good analogy though is it? The equivalant would have been the Soviets stopping at the former German border and offering a ceasefire.

The resistance to your position has nothing do with "comfortable" or "acceptable". Your "idea" is simply wrong based on the common English defintion of "mercy".

Except they did retaliate not to the extent they could have but that's not mercy or even particuarly laudable especially sense it was in their own best interest to do so.

 

Here old friend I must disagree.... From the numerous accounts which I have come across of returning Germans in the 50's all claim the same thing.... How surprised they were at the treatment of German POW's by the Red Army during captivity. There were no mass executions, tortures or science experiments performed on them. In fact they even ate the same rations which their Soviet guards had! I will try to find articles. They are quite fascinating.

 

The main statement here about mercy was the issue in question, which in my opinion isn't accurate. As I mentioned previously, if you compare Hitler's plan to ethnically cleanse the East vs what the Russians did to Germany in return, then I agree the Russian response wasn't as extreme, but it wasn't merciful.

With respect to accounts of returning Germans, I submit that isn't a representative focus group. The ones who died in captivity, didn't return, so no information is available from them. I wonder what the opinion of the 84,000 Stalingrad POWs that did not return would be?

 

Now, you can see that I'm not an isolated example who sees the past in a bit different way from yours. There are many millions who would agree with me but some have decided not to hear or refuse to listen to the opposite opinion.

 

For me, this sounds reasonable.
During the war Soviet Union suffered utter devastation and had to be rebuilt. Many young Soviets died this way or another and they had to be replaced. One of choices was to employ labor of these who wrecked the entire western part of the state. I think that was a reasonable solution.