Tanks with most influence in the war...

Nice info,thanx, Erich!

By the way, any idea if Bobby Woll was the only gunner who could shoot and hit with Tiger on the move?? It is one sorta legend..

 

Kai :

Buchner was one of the top gunners in the 1st SS and I can imagine he racked up a good score while staionary as well as on the move. I can also think of Karl Bromann and Karl Körner of SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 in the Pommern and around Danzig knocking out about 66 to 100 Soviet panzers in their big Königstigers, many times on the move forward and backwards to firm positions.
Ernst Barkmann in the Ardenne when he created total chaos along a dark street, the Panther on a move forward attacked a whole column of Shermans and destroyed every one of the parked tanks, travelling at high speed out of the village and down the road until they hit a crossroads and parked in the underbrush waiting for the Shermans.....what was left of them to attack him.
Willi Fey in Tiger 1 # 134? destroyed 15 Shermans, 12 recon vehicles, 1 AT gun and numerous half tracks on August 7, 1944 on the N-158 near Chenedolle.

E

 

Thanx alot Erich!

very interesting information again!

 

Sturmgeschütz Aces

Probably the most successful engagement involving Sturmgeschutz III Ausf F took place in Stalingrad in early September of 1942. Stug III Ausf F from Stug.Abt.244, commanded by Oberwachtmeister Kurt Pfreundtner destroyed 9 Soviet tanks in 20 minutes. On September 18th of 1942, Oberwachtmeister Kurt Pfreundtner received the Knights Cross for this achievement.

Another Sturmgeschutz ace was the Knights Cross holder Wachtmeister Kurt Kirchner from Stug.Abt.667, who destroyed 30 Soviet tanks during few days in February of 1942 during fighting in Northern Russia.

Hauptmann Peter Franz also the Knights Cross holder and the commander of Stug.Abt. "Grossdeutschland" destroyed some 43 Soviet T-34/76 tanks during the Battle for Borissovka on March 14th of 1943.

In the middle of July of 1941, Oberfeldwebel Rudolf Jaenicke (Stug number 25), commander of Stug platoon destroyed 12 Soviet BT-2 tanks along with tractors and other equipment loaded on rail platforms.

Between 1st and 4th of January of 1943, Unteroffizier Horst Naumann from Stug.Abt.184 destroyed 12 Soviet tanks during heavy fighting in the Demyansk area. On January 4th, Naumann was awarded with Knight's Cross for destruction of total of 27 enemy tanks.

The most notable of all Stug aces were von Malachowski, Franz and especially Knight's Cross holder Oberwachtmeister Hugo Primozic of Stug.Abt.667.

The most notable Waffen SS Stug ace was SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Walter Kniep, who commanded the 2nd Sturmgeschuetz Abteilung of 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich". From July 5th of 1943 to January 17th of 1944, his unit claimed destruction of some 129 Soviet tanks, while losing two Stugs. Kniep was then awarded the Knight's Cross.

 

Kai :

And Kniep was very unfortunate in his demise. He was transferred over to GvB 17th SS Stug Abt. as Kommandeur and he was killed by a stray bullet when someone was attempting to unload their Luger pistol... ! Arg ! From here the 17th SS with Stug's ausf G's took part in the Normandy campaign and the unit lost all it's stug's with only the destruction of some 15 or so Sherman's to it's credit. The Abteilung commandeur that replaced Kniep also met his end in Normandy being captured by the Maquis and killed near Laval on August 6/7 1944.....Sturmbannführer Ludiwg Kepplinger.
Possibly the most effective unit in the W-SS during Normandy armed with stug's/Pz. Jagd IV's may have been 12th SS Panzerjagd Abt. armed with the Pz. jagd IV. During the month of August 44 it cmae to confront masses of Polish armor, and during one instance the Abt. destroyed over 40 Shermans.

E

 

I'm going to have to go with the NAZI Panther and Tiger. Why? Because they were both a REALLY big shock to the allies and they had LOTS of armor and BIG guns. The allies had to change the way the Sherman was used to beat them. The Allies also needed 4 or 5 Shermans to take down 1 or 2 Tigers or Panthers. The only reason the Tigers and Panthers didn't win the war for Germany is that there just weren't enough of them. This was the case for many German weapons. The Sherman in quantity beats the Tiger or Panther in quality. If a Sherman was to take on a Tiger or Panther one on one the Sherman would lose big time! The allies found this out the hard way. Thus, the Tiger and Panther changed the way the Sherman was used! This is what I like to call influence! This is why I think the NAZI Panther and Tiger are the most influencial tanks of the war.

[ 16. December 2002, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Mustang ]

 

Nope.....T-34's all the way, consider this, no T-34, then no tiger. Guerdian considered the PZ IV tank enough for him, the chassis was quite adaptable, power plant was adequate.

So to argue Tigers and Panthers were the most influential, when the reality was they were influenced by the appearance of the T-34...hmmm, maybe I'm missing the point of this thread. I've read there was alot of thought of just making a straight copy of the T-34 by the Germans.

Better yes, but only answers to the T-34, they were definite advancements, and if built in bigger quantities could definetly have "Influenced" the war more.

Of course I'm one of the guys who thinks the King Tiger was a total waste of resources!

 

Good points, JOL, but I don't think the T-34/Tiger question is so simple- the germans were planning a large, heavy "breakthrough" tank as early as 1938. And on another level, if the T-34 was so influential on the Tiger, the german designers probably would have instituted sloped armor to save some of the Tiger's weight.

I think you can look at each tank individually for this question. The question itself is rather broad- most influential how? and when?- so we can look at many different factors.
The T-34 was undoubtedly one of the most influential tanks... it's ruggedness, it's simplicity...
But the Tiger was certainly influential in that it forced more or less everyone to up-gun and up-armor all their tanks. Each of the allies (was forced to) come up wiht a specific tank or TK in response to the Tiger- russian SU-152 among others, British "Firefly", American Pershing...

And if we look at "reputation" during the war- in that case, I'd say that the Tiger would easily be the most influential tank.

 

Actually no T-34 no Panther....

Some kinda Tiger was on its way like Crazy says, but Panther was a rip-off, only the German engineers were so proud they would not copy it 1:1 and made their own adjustments...

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-development.html

 

Alsi Kai the Germans had a problem with material. The Russian engine could not be re-produced exactly because of a lack of certain metals. Also, i believe i am correct in thinking the T-34 had 4 crew. The Germans had already setteled on a crew of 5. So to copy the T-34 exactly would, in my view, have been a mistake.

But, the Tiger woud still have been built in more or less the form we saw it, while the Pz V would have been something different, as both had been underway since 1937.

 

A crew of 4 was tough. Imagine trying to be the gunner as well as the tank commander at the same time. Typical of Soviet tank crews.

German optics were far superior as well as the gun platform as the 8.8 long rod could take anyting out due to it's high velocity and high impact power of it's ammo.

E ........ no doubt the T-34 made a huge impact on the way the German techs thought of future tank designs.

 

Damn my lazy bones....should know better than to try and sneak the Tiger was the T-34 answer, when it was the Panther.

My excuse? recent move and all books are still boxed in the garage....Ok?....Forgiven....guys?

But if we are talking pyschological influence, I'm a tiger guy, If I had to pick a tank to crawl into in WW II it would definetly be the Tiger. But I honestly think the T-34 was a war-winner, and to a lesser extent the Sherman....that's influence. Like I said before if the Tiger was built in the same quantities as the above, we would have what-ifs like "If the Americans had developed the Pershings earlier, do you think they would have won?".

Thanks for the trouble free research gents! With knowledge like this around why would I ever go through the trouble of pulling those books out again!

 

Yes, Bish,

as you mentioned it I remebered that the Germans did have problems with some engine parts as well.I´ll try to catch the problem..

I think the Germans thought of the first T-34 as a "blind" tank as well when it did not have the commander´s cupole ( or something like that ).Later on the Russians quickly started correcting this. And yet with these problems ( no radio, 4 crew men ) they could give the Germans a good beating...

 

Someone may have posted this site before on the forum but I will but it in just in case you missed it. www.tanksforsale.co.uk They have alot of other stuff besides tanks for sale. There is anouther place in Rome Georgia that I can remember in the 1970's sold Sherman Tanks but I can not find a web page for them. May have gone out of business.

 

Heh... JOL, find me someone here who has not mis-spoken!!

I'd agree entirely with your analysis. The T-34 was probably the most influential in the aspects that will win a war . Easy to build, maintain, and repair, plus rugged and powerful enough to impact the battlefield.
However, as far as psychological influence , the Tiger would probably have to win it. I can't think of any tank that was as feared, especially by the western allies, as the Tiger.

Hmmm.... maybe we should have examined the thread's question a bit more- influential how?

 

King Tiger vs Sherman: Just imagine the feeling of the Sherman crews...



"Clang!" The impact of the high-velocity armor-piercing shell shook the King Tiger and hurled Rheinhold Minke, its commander, against the cupola. He straightened up and realized that he, his crew, and his tank, were unhurt. They had taken a direct hit at pointblank range from a Sherman and were unscathed. The terror brought on by the impact gave way to a sense of invulnerability and then, blood lust. "Get 'em, Kurt!" he shouted to his gunner.
Kurt stomped on the treadle plate that rotated the turret. Slowly the huge gun came to bear on the Sherman not 200 meters away. An evil grin spread across Minke's face as he imagined what was going on inside that Sherman right now. "Nothing can save you now!" he muttered triumphantly. The huge gun belched fire, and the Sherman's turret was half torn-off by the impact. The driver's hatch popped open and the driver climbed out, his clothing smoking. "Mow him down!" Minke shouted, but Kurt was already firing the machine gun. The American got ten yards and then his body flopped into the snow like a broken doll.
Another round hit the turret; Minke's nose was broken when his face hit the cupola. Kurt's arm was cut by a metal flake that had spalled off the inside of the turret at the impact point. The spot was still glowing a dull red. Again the huge turret traversed, again the mighty gun roared, and another Sherman disintegrated.
More rounds hit, clawing deep gouges in the Tiger's armor, but never penetrating it. Minke's crew was battered and cut, but not incapacitated. Working methodically, they destroyed two more of their attackers. Then the Americans fled. Rheinhold Minke, king of the battlefield, nursing two cracked ribs and bleeding from the nose, let them go.


http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/anecdotesbob.html

 

nice anecdote...

 

I would have to go with the T-34. It greatly influenced the Germans in there next generation of tanks. And we all know what kind of influence the German tanks had on the next generation of American tanks. The T-55 thru T-90's all are basically upgunned and uparmored T-34's on a different chassis.

 

Influence on what?

On the outcome of the war? Then T-34 and Sherman

On Tank development? Then for technology this goes to the Germans, Panther et al, but for industrial out put its the T-34 and sherman again.

Bear in mind that it is the T-34 which really sparks the gun/armour race into modern battle tanks...

 

Most influential, definatly the T-34. it effects are still in evidence today. also it eventually gave birth to the the t-54/55 series, which was the most widely produced tank in history.

from britian it has to be the centurion, while it did not serve it was definetly born out the lessons britian had learnt during the war. this tank is still in service today and its main armament, which again was developed from lesson during the war with the 17pdr and QF guns, is still one of the most potent in use today. one of its derivative was still used in the US M1 upto a few years ago when it was superseded by the M1A2.