Tanks with most influence in the war...

Centurion is just a British King Tiger...

 

No its much better. at least it doesn't break down every five minutes!!

 

But at least mine look cool even when they are broken down!

 

maybe but its not good being stuck in the mud!!

 

Everyone knows the infalibility of the Superior German Armoured might. Mud will never stop us.


Well,apart from Russian mud that is...

 

And Budapest mud, lets not forget Operation Spring Awakening. Did a King Tiger ever roll on Russian tuff? No matter, should go to american, they weedy, dusty mud can't stop a Maus.

The best tank in the field I'd say was either the T-34 or Panzer Mark four.

But then again the Tiger made a big influence, after 60 years the average idiot knows what a Tiger is. Films are based around them, americans shout out there name loudly, 'Tiger tank!' is far more cooler then 'Panzer mark IV with extended barrel!'. It didn't have a major influence on the field, but it has a slight one nowadays.

And, isn't that what war is all about? Spreading influence? The Tiger does that.

 

The Tiger had a huge impact on the battlefield in terms of combat and morale. It could prove to be a decisive weapon if employed correctly. The reputation of the Tiger, that remains today in the public psyche is based upon the allied wartime fear of the tank. To say that it had no impact is wrong. Psycologically it was a weapon to be feared and boost the morale of your own troops. When used correctly one tiger could cause losses out of all proportion, villers-bocage for example.

As for the Panzer IV being the most influential, I aint sure. It was certainly an excellent medium tank design, but always seems to be trying to catch up and contend with the big boys. It certainly didnt shoe the revolutionary design of the T-34.

 

The Tiger certainly had an impact on the battlefield beyond its' own capability.

There are many accounts of the Normandy bocage fighting, for instance, where one shout of 'Tiger' could pin Allied troops and armour down waiting for support - and often, there was no Tiger.....

 

Everytime a german tank was seen they thought it was a tiger. An effect of Tiger-Shock-Syndrome...

 

And sometimes the americans thought the Panther tank was a King Tiger.

And on the contray, the later version of the Panzer mark IV, upgraded with heavier armour and a long barreled gun, had equal chance against the T-34, and had reasonable numbers too.

 

I notice earlier in this thread Fey's account of his 'destruction' of The 23rd Hussars on August 7th is repeated. This feat is highly improbable. The 23rd Hussars were down to about 10 working Shermans some days before the 7th and if you read Fey's full account you will see that he says he was alone in an empty field, disabled and with other Tigers near him who took no part. He was attacked by aircraft and ran out of ammo. He had to send a crew member to borrow some from the other Tigers and then with 2 rounds left he fired at the 'last' Sherman as it rushed him and only hit it with his very last round-some story!
I think here we have an example of a 'claim' promoted to a 'fact'. All these stories we hear about Tigers 'destroying' dozens of T-34's and Shermans are never verified are they? Perhaps someone could post an account where there is checkable confirmation of a high kill ratio?

 

Try Villers-Bocage. This is confirmed by both British and German sources.

Ernst Barkmanns action in Normandy at 'Barkmanns Corner'.

There are also several LAH battle reports which document the single handed destruction of enemy tanks by lone Tigers. There is one famous one but his name escapes me, will check in Tiger Commanders of the LAH by Agte when U get home tomorrow. Will also check up on Fey story...

 

As to Fey's account I have felt similar thoughts though through the chaos of battle can we determine without a doubt that he was engaging just one British element of tanks ?

Would be nice to prove as well the late 1945 battles of the Königstigers of Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 503 where they claimed over 400 Soviet tanks during the heavy battles in Pommern/Danzig and Berlin. I think it was quite possible....

~E

 

Villers was not an example of a 'lone Tiger'. Wittmann was supported by at least 2 other Tigers firing down the road (one of which was knocked out). Wittmann's tally was 8 tanks confirmed hit as he went into Villers (2 were stuarts and 2 were OP tanks)and an account by him in which he states he hit 2 others but no independent confirmation of this. Of the Cromwells lost at point 213 it appears that the majority were destroyed bt the crews themselves and you can plainly see in the photos that 'Shufti Cush' and Dunlop's 5th RHA OP Cromwell are undamaged and a German is depicted setting fire to them (why if they are knocked out?) Whilst it was a stunning reverse this action in no way qualifies as an example of a high kill ratio. Every Tiger knocked out that day(up to 8 but some were recovered) was due to a hit and thus the ratio of direct 'kills' would be more in the area of 2:1.

 

only wittmans tiger went into the town.the problem with this battle is that no one really knows what happened and most sources on it are wrong or follow the 'hollywood' version of events.
What about Barkmanns corner?

 

other tigers did go into villers town but after wittman. of his two tanks in support one went up the road and his original tank broke down before entering the town. it remained at the road junction.

 

Wittmann was helped by the fire of 2 Tigers as he went into Villers. One (no.231)was hit and knocked out. Accounts by other German Units entering the town later clearly mention 2 disabled Tigers just outside the town with dead and wounded crewmen around them. This is before the foray into Villers by the 1st kp. of 101. I don't dispute that ace's of any nationalty could and did get high scores.However constant repititon of tales such as 200+ T-34's for the loss os 2 or 3 Tigers WITHOUT ANY INDEPENDENT CORROBORATION should be treated cautiously.
I also forgot to include the Pz IV's knocked out in the battle for Villers. They would bring the ratio down as well.

 

But the markIV entered in the afternoon as part of Lehr. I will have to wait till i get back home and i will post up my LAH report on villers...

 

I hate to get in the middle of an entertaining punch-up here but what's the verdict on the conclusions in Taylor's 'Villers-Bocage Through The Lens' ?

 

On the Normandy module trip we run for uni, we spend a day at villers, and we are still unsure what went on. I believe it to be a mixture of the accounts and next year we have decided to give the students two versions of the events there. Myself and the module leader, who is publishing a book on british armour in normandy both disagree on the events of that day. I think that through the lense is the most likely version as this matches the LAH accounts that I have, as wittmann was not knocked out in the town but on its outskirts. There were seven or eight disabled Tigers in the area but several were recovered before the famous pictures were taken. I am currently researching this as last year we discovered a scale model of the town area during the battle in the town hall. At the moment I am trying to identify the six tigers in the town proper and I believe they all come from 1st company. Maybe I will post some more on this when I get home as we have been trying to locate some other pictures which we believe are in existence, but I dont think we will ever know what really occured. I have Wittmanns report on the battle, and it is only a few lines not the propagandised version that has beome factualised in books like Aces of the Reich.

I think that it is interesting for the reason that it is so well known yet, in my opinion still not complete.

Now back to trying to find those pesky turret numbers...

By the way no-one has a troop list for Wittmanns company on that day? I have one for 6th June but would like one later, or even a list of kia and wounded in the period from D-Day to the battle at Villers so I can establish exactly who had which tiger...