The best general of the eastern front?

Guderian and Paulus get my vote for one simple reason. They stood up for what was right. Guderian was relieved of command when he disagreed and disobeyed Hitler. Something that more German Generals should have done. And Paulus refused to commit suicide and surrendered his entrapped army against Hitler's order. A good general can fight valiantly and always looks out for his men. I like Chukov but its hard for me to put a russian general ahead of the German ones when they expense their men like bullets are expensed in a machine gun. I would say most battles on the eastern front were more of a tragedy for both sides than a victory or loss from either.

 

Zukhov and Rokossovsky disagreed with Stalin and kept their jobs! which makes them better in my book.

I agree that Red army generals tended to have less regard for casulaties, but on the Eastern front it was more
important that you got the job done. Besides, a willingness to take casualties did not increase one's chances of winning a battle.

 

IMHO Georgi Zhukov. For his defensive and offensive capabilities.
My reasons are posted at the thread: http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-films-tv/40749-band-brothers-eastern-front.html#post572714

 

Im not talking of disagreeing with Hitler. Guderian and Paulus directly disobeyed him. That is different. Also, I find the fighting at Stalingrad as the most intense and heroic of the whole war between both sides. But since it was the Germans who were encircled and fighting with no hope I give slightly more credit to them. And Guderian is the father of Blitzkrieg and modern armor warfare so his contribution to warfare alone makes him one of the greatest.

 

For me it's a toss up between Fyodor Tolbukhin and Konstantin Rokossovskiy both of whom seem to be rather underated.

Also German commanders seem to be overated, they were beaten after all by an army that had to re-build itself twice.

 

Of course Chuikov IMO came up with the best method of fighting German forces of the war.

 

German Commanders overated? Maybe some but alot of them were probably the best of the war. Alot of German commanders were overuled by Hitler several times. Commanders like Bock, Guderian, Rommel, Manstien, and others are clearly not overated. Rommel is probably the greatest commander of the whole war and one of the greatest in history. You have to look deep into the problems that were going on among the German high command to understand them. Not to mention many German commanders won many battles. The Germans just happened to lose the war.

 

Jager, you might find this hard to believe but in 1941 Stalin meddled in military affairs far more frequent than Hitler. In fact Russias largest catastrophe of WW2 (4 armies lost in Kiev) was the direct result of Stalin forbiding a withdrawal contrary to pleas by Zhukov . As the war progressed though the roles changed. Stalin gave his military leadership more freedom while Hitler started to take it away.

As for Rommel, he was a capable commander but only with a limited number of men. Had he really been as great as you like to perceive then he would have fought alongside the best in Russia commanding more than a handful of divisions.

 

i agree with the first statement as stalin did as well as hitler. However Zhukov also made some early mistakes on his own and I believe Hitlers orders were alot more crucial than Stalins. Of course that would be all opinion based. i completely disagree with the rommel statement. Rommel might not have handled as many units as the ones on the ostfront but had he been on there he would have had a huge impact. And his accomplishments can not be ignored. Rommel was extremely good at handling his units despite a lack of manpower, re inforcements, and equipment. Rommel also seemed to extremely good at moving his units fast. I agree the rommel might not have been say so great in a commanding position like say Bock was but had Bock been able to use Guderian and Rommel to command forces on the field things would have been rather interesting. Not to mention that Rommel was regarded as one of the best commanders of the war by friends and foes alike.

 

IMO Jager, the eastern front posed the greatest threat to Germany, therefore; Germany's best of the best served in the east. Again IMO, had Rommel been considered one of Germany's best then he would have found himself in Russia, perhaps taking the role away from Hoepner.

Also not all thought highly of Rommel. Both Halder and Paulus were not enthusiasts.

 

Well while the eastern front did pose a greater threat to Germany I agree. however Rommel had already been given command of the 15th and 21st (later combined into the Afrika korps) and had been sent to Africa before the russian campaign had begun. So had Rommel not already been in africa conducting his campaign then he could have ended up on the eastern front. Also you are correct as some German generals (the conservative ones) were critical of Rommel. I am not aware of paulus being critical of him but i am well aware that Kluge was very against him and that also could have been a factor in why rommel did not end up in russia. Many of the high command regarded rommel as "too agressive, and too reckless" but you also have to consider what he did in france. Kluge claimed he under mined the importance of the luftwaffe in his operations and exposed the flanks of the 5th. however, rommel made the best gains of any commander in france and did so while undermining the air force. Rommel's ability to move his units fast into enemy lines might have been invaluable for the eastern front as the German plan was to win fast anyways. of course there is no telling if rommel would have even made a difference. In fact rommel always wanted to be on the front lines so chances are very good he could have been killed before being able to do anything to make a difference.

 

Interesting that Halder also hated Manstein ( from Marcel Stein´s book on Manstein profile ), making Manstein´s career hard ever since the late 30´s.Probably hated Model as well. Maybe the usual envy and jealousy situation inside armies who gets promotions and medals first??

 

In 1936,Manstein got the important post of 1st deputy chief of staff,although he was junior than Halder,who also coveted the function .Manstein was a protégé of Fritsch,while Halder had the support of Beck ;very soon,there was an open war between Beck and Manstein,Manstein considering Beck as an old fool,a colonel Blimp .
The result was that,after von Fritsch had to go,Manstein immediately was exiled as division commander in Silesia .

 

Von Mannstein, hands down. He was brilliant in both the east and west, and he managed to stay in the OKW until Kate in the war, whereas most generals were sacked by an increasingly delusional Hitler.

 

In a recent biography on Model (published in 2010), Marcel Stein argues that Model wasn't the perfect commander. Although he was Hitler's fireman, many of his subordinates found it impossible to work with him. On many occasions Model lost his temper, and he could be very rude.

You could say that there were no 'gentleman' on the eastern front, but I would say that communication with superiors as well as subordinates is very important.

From what I have read, I would say Manstein was the most gifted German commander on the eastern front. Also, Western military experts like B.H. Liddell Hart praised Manstein for his generalship. Liddell Hart even wrote the foreword to Mansteins autobiography (Verlorene Siege (Lost Victories)).

 

Don't forget staff people. I opt for Boris Shaposhnikov. He was Chief of the General Staff until May 1942 and deputy Defense Minster till June 1943, i.e. in the hardest period of war for the USSR. I think he is one of the generals who remain underestimated.
Boris Shaposhnikov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards,

 

Rossokovsky gets my vote for the Russian General:

Can't remember the actual attack but Stalin wanted one prong - Ross said no; two is better. Stalin told him to retire and think about it. When he returned Stalin asks "OK are we going to have one thrust" - No says Ross; two is better. Ross is sent off to think about all night with Beria wispering in his ear that he is looking forward to torturing the Pole. Next day Stalin asks again and for the third time Ross says two prong is best - OK says Stalin, we will have two prong attack.

Zukov was a hopeless Chief of General Staff. After one monumental mistake, Stalin tears into him with such ferocity that Zukov breaks down in tears! - Stalin then sends him back to front line.

Info from a brilliant book - Court of the Red Tzar by Simon Sebag-Montefiore

 

Which monumental mistake were you referring to?

Cant say that I have heard Zhukov crying either.

 

Glantz seems to suggest that Zhukov was too obsessed with destroying the German Army Group Center ever since Dec 1941. He finally did it with Bagration but until then huge lossses no real measurable gains, just losses.

 

Code:

 Cant say that I have heard Zhukov crying either  

Surprised me too!

Obviously you have not read the book which is much more concerned with the characters concerned than inimate details of the campaign. However, S-M is very good with the citations and managed to get interviews with people very close to Stalin (or their offspring). Gives a real insight not only into Stalin and his henchmen but many of the military commanders as well.


Will need to dig around a bit (large book)but when I find the info I will post it.