The Largest Tank Battle Ever Fought & Lost By Tommy!

I have to say that the books on Goodwood by Perry Moore are flawed. 'Kursk In Normandy' is the original US title of his work. It then became 'Corridor Of Death'

Operation Goodwood, July 1944: A Corridor of Death: Amazon.co.uk: Perry Moore: Books


for a re-release but it still is is pretty dire!

 

Unfortunately don´t recall the books I got these from but it seems to me that the operation put too much pressure on the fact the bombings would blow the enemy away and the units would not face practically any German resistance ?

1. the start up point was small, all the troops didn´t fit there, a traffic jam. As well four bridges available only caused that tanks went ahead but artillery followed very late behind.I guess by the first evening there was a huge traffic jam at the starting point still.

2. As well the first phase for the tanks was to pass the British mine fields one by one and the clearing of the route had to be done seconds before the beginning of the attack.

3. There was an airman in the tanks who was supposed to contact the allied aircraft where to attack, except that the Germans ( who knew to destroy the commander tanks first naturally ) killed his tank first, and later on nobody else suitable was found to the job. So the group of planes had to do on their own.

4. The reconnaissance did not notice LAH tanks come in.

1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5. I recall reading also that the on the 19th the weather was pretty awful for allied planes to assist the ground troops?

 

In my personal opinion, the Tank Battle was all about a pushout of Caen valley and building Up a strong attacking Force and supplying them was necessary. The Narrowed roads made it difficult since D-Day pushing inland the few roads were cluttered moving supplies Men tanks +++ was a major problem. Jerry knew after the Capture of Caen and prepared for the Allied Attack which in their eyes was inevitable. One must also know that the Weather also played a roll, Many Sorties had to be canceled as Some planes had to travel from Britain in many cases had to turn back or had accidents shot down by Germans Planes.

It began on the morning of 18 July. Air Chief Marshal Leigh-Mallory called it "the heaviest and most concentrated air attack in support of ground forces ever attempted," dropping 7700 tons, of high explosive and fragmentation bombs from low altitude sorties, at sea British naval guns open up , and 400 of Simonds “famous” artillery pieces by land. Many villages were reduced to rubble burning buildings stood surrounded by blow up burning vehicles, beyond the bombing line and out of range of the Rolling bombardments. Jerry was further south, on the Bourguébus Ridge out off range were largely unscathed by the allied pounding. The battle-harden Germans were ready and waiting with rows of 88s, field guns and Nebelwerfer, multi-barrelled mortars all camouflaged and entrenched.

When the British Tanks+++ moved down the road and since the Germans were camouflage embedded fortified with long rang accuracy, Their Spotters where deadly accurate directing Fire as unscaved from the Allied Immense needless wasted bombardment. It's to be noted that Caen was leveled to the ground and when the Allies moved in found not one trace that the Germans ever occupied the Village, Non!

Free PDF Terry Copps

OPERATION CHARNWOOD: The Canadian Battle for Caen

By Terry Copp

http://www.waramps.ca/uploadedFiles/English_Site/Military_Heritage/Media/PDF/opch.pdf

Fields of Fire: The Canadians in Normandy

Fields of Fire: The Canadians in ... - Google Books


Operation Goodwood

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTaLdIdZ1PI [/YOUTUBE]

 

The Youtube clip is a wonderful example of how not to do it.
One example?

"29th Armoured Brigade lost half its tanks ........and 11th Armoured Division lost 126"

For those not up to date on British Units 29th Armoured Brigade was 75% of the tanks in 11th Armoured Division. It seems the sub-unit losses were greater than the losses of the whole Division!

 

Spainard,

Once again I find myself asking you for references to your posts. Half the links you have provided are simply the links to each photo itself and nothing backing up any of your claims, post the links to where you have copy and pasted anything,

 

In my personal opinion, the Tank Battle was all about a pushout of Caen valley and building Up a strong attacking Force and supplying them was necessary. The Narrowed roads made it difficult since D-Day pushing inland the few roads were cluttered moving supplies Men tanks +++ was a major problem. Jerry knew after the Capture of Caen and prepared for the Allied Attack which in their eyes was inevitable. One must also know that the Weather also played a roll, Many Sorties had to be canceled as Some planes had to travel from Britain in many cases had to turn back or had accidents shot down by Germans Planes.

It began on the morning of 18 July. Air Chief Marshal Leigh-Mallory called it "the heaviest and most concentrated air attack in support of ground forces ever attempted," dropping 7700 tons, of high explosive and fragmentation bombs from low altitude sorties, at sea British naval guns opened up, and 400 of Simonds “famous” artillery pieces by land. Many villages were reduced to rubble burning buildings stood surrounded by blown up burning vehicles, beyond the bombing line and out of range of the bombardments. Jerry was further south, on the Bourguébus Ridge out off range, were largely unscathed by the allied pounding. The battle-harden Germans were ready and waiting with rows of 88s, field guns and Nebelwerfer, multi-barrelled mortars all camouflaged and entrenched.

When the British Tanks+++ moved down the road and since the Germans were camouflage embedded fortified with long rang accuracy, Their Spotters where deadly accurate directing Fire as unscaved from the Allied Immense needless wasted bombardment. It's to be noted that Caen was leveled to the ground and when the Allies moved in found not one trace that the Germans ever occupied the Village, Non!


That's not copied and pasted, my personal thoughts The info is General information concerning Goodwood and Atlantic, which I read 30 years ago.

That's part of my 65 page assessment of The Battle of Verrières Ridge.


Now I have that info but on PDF from Copp++ on 4 files that I have no Link. But I Also did a quick search and in Operation Atlantic which was part of Op Goodwood and also simultaneously launched with Cobra.


Caen had been a D-Day objective for the British 2nd Army. The capture of Caen and its surrounding plain was considered important to allow the Allies space to build airfields. Caen sat astride the Orne river, so its capture would give 2nd Army a foothold across it. Repeated attempts were made to seize the city in June and July 1944.
One of them was British Operation Goodwood. It was helped by the Canadian Operation Atlantic.



On July 18, 1944, at day break, an air raid dropped 7,700 tonnes of bombs on Caen. It was synchronized with counter-battery fire from artillery regiments and the fleet. Then the British and the Canadians attempt the crossing of the Orne River.

http://www.search.com/reference/Operation_Atlantic

The Orne River and the Caen Canal ran laterally across the British front, directly in the path of the armoured divisions. Only six small bridges were available to move over 8,000 vehicles, including tanks, artillery, mechanized Infantry, Engineers and support vehicles such as ammunition and fuel supply vehicles, medical units and so forth. It was obvious that a traffic control problem would ensue. Dempsey's proposed solution was disastrous - he directed his Corps Commander (O'Connor) to move the tanks ahead, leaving behind everything else including Infantry, Engineers, Artillery etc until all the tanks were across.

In hindsight we can see that the armour moved too late: the hundreds of tanks were horribly slowed by the bottle-neck of the bridges and minefield. Again, to preserve surprise, artillery units were not moved forward to support the attack

http://www.search.com/reference/Operation_Goodwood

 

Thankyou again for some links

You need to understand that if any one reads your last post how do they know what is your opinions or views compared to either a copy and paste or something taken directly from a book? This is why you reference or use the 'quote' option with anything taken from some where else so we know whether it is yours or not.

 

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Look Not a problem I added "In my personal opinion."

 

Is it possible that the fact the Germans had more combat experience contributed to their success in this particular mission or am I way off? Afterall they had been fighting in this particular style of warfare for four years in the Soviet Union.

 

I would say negative on that, what they did have was defensive positions, some have said well dug in, personally I do not agree totally with that as the front was ever changing

I also stand by my point made on page 1 that the 2nd SS Panzer Division was nowhere to be found in this area, lets make this clear shall we and that the II.SS Schwere Panzer Abteilung and Korps was. there is a difference

 

This is Correct the 2nd was nowhere near the Tank Battle But was part of Operation Goodwood, and only moved in on Verrières Ridge.

On 21-24 Spring and Cobra was also postponed due to Torrential Rains.

The Rains gave the Germans time to move in troops tanks +++ that had been fighting the Americans and all German attention went into stopping the Canadians and the British and fortified Verrières Ridge, as the surrounding areas.

If you link to wiki or all web Sites Goodwood was from 18th -20th which is incorrect Goodwood lasted till the Germans counter attacks late 26th-27. Just like US Cobra was postponed till the 24th, all operations Launched early hours of the 25th. The British still call theirs Goodwood the US still called theirs Cobra only the Canadians changed the name to Op Spring which was supposed to be launched on the 21st but also postponed till the 25th which we all know, meet with disastrous needless results. As the successful 50+ miles, American sneaky breakout since they had moved many Germans Divisions to the Caen outskirts area, as the Canadians and British Fought of German Counter attacks form early 26th-29th around. The British launched Operation Bluecoat from July 30th- August 7th.

This resulted in the Axis committing their reserves to the eastern half of the battle, so the United States forces only faced one and a half Panzer divisions compared with the six and a half now facing the British and Canadian armies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Goodwood

 

I think we still have a confusion problem, the 2nd W-SS Panzer division was not in operation goodwood nor on the ridge you mention it was facing US forces in the western sector along with the 17th W-SS Pz Grenadiers and the Fallshirmjägern.

As to the 2nd Heer Panzer Division well that may be another story and could of been part of Goodwood but I am not sure.

to the above I point you to Hans Stöbers work on the 17th SS and Weidingers epic on the 2nd W-SS panzer Div., multi-volumes..................the histories though in German cover the period quite well of the two units facing US forces during Normandie

 

Copps, O'Keefe, Mc Kenna ++++ Canadian Historians all have stated that the Germans where Battle Hardened, many with 4 years experience fighting the Russians, better equipped and supplied.

3-1 is the odds against when fighting an embedded fortified force, Air Support with Artillery as ground troops when deploying tanks is a Must Have even by WWII Standers. Canadians Fought in the outskirts of Caen being outnumbered 1-5++.

 

Which German division did the most damage in this battle?

 

2nd Heer Panzer Division I don't think so, Operation Ultra Claims Elements of 2nd SS Pz Div, supported by the 9th in the Caen Area.

Yes I know 2nd SS Pz Div was in St.Lo Area, but elements where moved to the Caen Area. I'm going by what other Historians have stated, That's why the US had little resistence on the 25th. Many German Elements had been moved to the Caen Area.


After the D-Day invasion in Normandy, France, Das Reich was committed to stop the Allied advance, and took part in the attempts to stop the Allies near Caen and St. Lo alongside the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend and the elite Panzer-Lehr-Division.

All About 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich… « Stahlhelm 1939's Blog


backed-up with 2nd SS Pz, and 9th SS Panzer Div. were known to be in support. East of the Caen-Falaise highway, 1st SS Panzer Div. held Tilly-la-Campagne. 10th SS Panzer Div, & 116th Panzer Divisions headed to the battlefront from the north of the Seine. Which they surrounded and dominated the Caen/Falaise Road with an extra 200 tanks, which had already stopped the British armour in Operation Goodwood dead in it’s tracks short of Verrières, on July 18th.

{This is From Mr David O'keefe Canadian Historian who descoverd the information in Opreation ULTRA documents.}

The Germans were expecting further attacks in the Caen area and consequently reinforced Verrières Ridge in the days preceding the attack there. By the end of July 24, 480 tanks, 500 field guns, and four additional infantry battalions with 600 men each had been moved into the sector.[8][9]Ultra intercepted coding signalling this, and delivered it to Simond's HQ, although it is unknown if he actually received the notice.

Operation Spring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

great PDF Free Has Map that shows "Elements of the 2 SS Pz" in the Caen Aeria.
"Der Gegenangriff vor Verrières. German Counterattacks during Operation 'Spring': 25–26 July 1944"

I'll look to see what other info I Fined that supports Elements of 2nd SS Pz in the Caen area.


Remember Mr Karl, I'm No Historian.

 

what historians ? you use wiki freely and that is not even counted as a serious resource, I have given you two and in German suggest you check those out for your own pleasure an serious research as you have stated you have studied this for 30 years ............ sorry but I will stick to my sources

 

First thank you for the Salute It's Appreciated. They all did their part, a combined effort.

Route nationale 13 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler was identified as being in reserve with 40 Panthers and 60 Panzer IV's.Two heavy tank battalions with Tiger tanks were expected to be met but both battalions had been erroneously placed with I SS Panzer Corps; the move of one these battalions which had been attached to the 21st Panzer Division, had not been identified.The German tank strength was estimated at 230 tanks. German artillery was assessed as 300 field and anti-tank guns. Second Army believed 90 of these guns were in the centre of the battle zone, 40 pieces on the flanks and 20 pieces defending the Caen-Vimont railway line. The gun line on the Bourguébus Ridge had been identified but the strength and gun locations had not been established.

(battle group) von Luck, a battle group formed from the 21st Panzer Division's Panzergrenadier Regiment 125, was in position behind these front line forces with around 30 assault guns. The remainder of the division, reinforced with the 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion that including ten King Tigers,[110] was positioned northeast of Cagny to be able to support Hans von Luck's force and also act as a reserve.[111] The division's Panzergrenadiers, with towed anti tank guns and assault guns, were to dig themselves into the villages of the Caen plain.[112] The 21st Panzer Division’s Reconnaissance and Pioneer battalions were positioned on the Bourguébus Ridge to protect the Corps artillery,which consisted of around 48 field and medium artillery pieces with an equal number of Nebelwerfers. The LXXXVI Corps had 194 artillery pieces and 272 Nebelwerfer available, The Corps also had 78 88 mm guns. One battery of four 88 mm flak guns, from Flak-Sturm Regiment 2, was positioned in Cagny while in the villages along the Bourguébus Ridge there was a screen of 44 88mm anti tank guns, from the 200th Tank Destroyer Battalion. The majority of the guns were beyond the ridge protecting the Caen-Falaise road.The number of guns in the German rear position is disputed by Simon Trew who claims that there was only around 36 anti-tank guns in the rear positions, including no more than 8–16 pieces on the ridge itself.

19-20 July
The German armour counter-attacked late in the afternoon and fighting continued along the high ground and around Hubert-Folie on 19 July and 20 July, bringing the attack to a halt. On 21 July, Dempsey started to secure his gains by substituting infantry for armour. And thats when the Needless Carnage insude, Men Vs Tanks.

The American official campaign historian wrote post war that had Goodwood succeeded in creating a breakthrough, "...COBRA would probably have been unnecessary."

It's to be remembered that when Cobra was postponed the US had already suffered 5,000 US casualties.

Operation Goodwood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Operation Cobra: Panzer Commander Fritz Langanker's Struggle Out of Roncey Pocket

Operation Cobra: Panzer Commander Fritz Langanker's Struggle Out of Roncey Pocket » HistoryNet


Operation Cobra : the break-out

Operation Cobra : the break-out


Originally, Operation Cobra had been planned for July 24, but the attack was postponed due to bad weather until midday on July 25.
Unfortunately, some of the bombers were launched on the 24th before they received word to stop, and dropped bombs on American
infantry. Then, on the actual day of the attack, some bombs were again accidentally dropped on U.S. troops due to badly marked targets.

The Normandy Campaign: Operation Cobra


The aims of the battles around Caen have been a source of continuing controversy. General Montgomery, still in command of all land forces in Normandy, both US and British, always maintained that the primary aim of these battles was to draw all the German armoured forces against the Anglo-Canadian forces in the Caen area to allow a breakout by the Americans to the west. General Eisenhower, still in England, did not understand this point and criticized the failure to achieve a breakout in the Caen area. The German after-action assessment seems to support Montgomery and, by this criterion, the operations were an unqualified success. C.P. Stacey, The Victory Campaign: The Operations in North-West Europe, 1944-1945 (Ottawa: Queen's Printer, 1960), pp. 176-180.

Allied armoured units have often been accused of being overcautious in the Normandy campaign, but this criticism is unjustified. In addition to having to learn the art of war during the campaign, the units possessed a main battle tank that was seriously outgunned and underarmoured in comparision with the German tanks. The Sherman tank was equipped with a short-barrelled, medium-velocity 75mm gun. They faced tanks, like the Panther, with long-barrelled, high-velocity 75mm gun and the Tiger with the famous 88mm high-velocity gun. The British and Canadian armoured regiments were equipped with the Sherman Firefly, which had a 17-pounder 76.2mm gun that could outgun all but the Tiger. But they only had one Firefly for every troop of four tanks, and the Germans quickly learned to knock out the Firefly. Once the Firefly was destroyed, the rest of the tanks were sitting ducks. Moreover, the Firefly was not a difficult weapon to disable. Indeed, Allied tank crews named them "Ronsons" (a brand of lighters) for the ease with which they caught fire.

Military History: Second World War: Liberation of France: Falaise


Read Page 46 of this PDF Top Right Corner Allied Intelligence

http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20issues/CMH/volume%201/issue%201-2/Copp%20-%20Fifth%20Brigade%20at%20Verrieres%20Ridge.pdf


The Final Phase of Operations "ATLANTIC" and "GOODWOOD" 95 The Results of Operation "GOODWOOD" and "ATLANTIC" 138 Report No. 58 The Results of Operation "SPRING"

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/ahqr-rqga/ahq0
58.pdf


On the Above Link Which is Canadian Forces Government Archived Documentation On report No. 58 Written 1953. Go to page 168 on the PDF 19/20 2nd SS Pz Div. Was ordered to send one Panzer Battalion, one reconnaissance Battalion and one Artillery Battalion to the outskirts of Caen.

On page 202 it clearly states " As we have seen battle groups of the 2 SS and 47th Pz Corps were sent East of the Orne to help out 1st SS Pz Corps contain the British-Canadian Attacks on the Bourguebus-St. Andre-sur-Orne Line The same time the 116 Pz Div. to be brought into the Battle Zone and deployed behind 1st Pz Div.


On page 203 which is part of Report #50, To stop the British and Canadian Attack Jerry's, 5th Pz Army on July 21st was sent "to further strengthen this "threatened" front. Genaral Eberbach ordered 9th SS Pz Div to detached from 2 SS Pz Corps and went to 1st SS Pz and was under command of 1st SS Pz. Most important, however on July 22nd, 2 SS Pz Div which is now on the Western end of the BRITISH Front awaiting relieved from the 326 Infentry Div. 2 SS Pz was ordered to be dispatched "with utmost Speed" to the Moulines-Casny-Acequeville-Tournebo area East of The Orne " Inorder to cope with the Expected Mass Attack." from the Orne BridgeHead

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