Roslav/Yelnya,let's not quible (my source mentioned Yelnya). But the fact remains,that every one was giving different dates :3 august,15 (my mistake),20 august . I have found back my copy of a.Clark,and,on P 130,he is writing :The army group commander and his 2 panzer lieutenants were,indeed,united in their recommendation to advance directly on Moscow,but,under Hitler's cross-examination,certain inconsistencies (I like British euphemisms) cropped up . Who would be right ? If Guderian's Panzers were withdrawn on 8 august only,I doubt that he would be ready on 15 august . There also is the fact of the lossesn 10 august,the Germans had lost 282000 men (without any replacement),and some 900 tanks(with 90 replacements only),and I doubt that the Germans would have 50% of their remaining tanks operational . And,if the mobile units would be ready on 20 august (as Hoth was saying),what was the status of the ID?Because,without these,Guderian /Hoth would not go far . And,again ,I will post the tank status reports : On 4 september,Guderian had 25 % of his tanks operational,why would he have more tanks operational on 15 august ? Hoth(with figures of 25 august and 6 september) had 40 % available ,and,why would he have more tanks available on 20 august ?