The Problem of Evil

good show guys this is getting more interesting by each post.........God created the universe which included atoms Muss. sorry no-one created him He was always here. cannot type anymmore due to carperal tunnel right now so with that...will let u guys discuss. think about why Martin Luther made such a big fuss and it was not to destroy catholicism either. sorry for the typos guyz

♠

 

I have a lot of respect for the old Desert Fathers of the early Christian era, and their equivalents in the other faiths. All they wanted to do was get closer to their respective God, and no-one was going to stop them. If that meant shutting themselves away from the world, so be it.
They had their equivalents in the Anchorites, who agreed to be immured for a certain length of time in a church a) to "anchor" that church to God and b) to get closer to God themselves.
That's why you had the monastic movements, and pilgrimages, and ultimately the Reformation and counter-Reformation. They were ALL attempts to get back to the purer, more spiritual form of Christianity and lose the worldly corruption which some perceived the faith to be riddled with.
It's still not done, people who lived through the sixties tried to find a purer, more spiritual form of faith to replace the madness they found around them.
Now, I don't know if the other faiths had their own versions of these, but all the Islamic fundamentalist movements which are grabbing the headlines these days could be considered their version of Luther, Knox, Calvin etc. They seem to want Islam to stay at the same level of social control which the Christian church espoused in the mediaeval era. The world isn't like that anymore, and to me it's significant that most of the fundamentalists grabbing all the attention come from affluent backgrounds. It's like the British middle classes in the 19th Century-they seem to think their education gives them the right to practice social engineering, and the rest of us will damn well listen and do what we're told, or else.
I consider myself more spiritual than Christian these days, because I'm fed up being told what "standards" to maintain. I was raised as a Free Presbyterian, was a member of the Orange Order, and then got sick and tired of all the hypocrisy. I'm happy with trying to find my own path to God. I'm not interested in denigrating anyone elses, as who's to say which of us is right?

Regards,
Gordon

[ 30. March 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

How do you know? As far as I can ascertain you were there at the time, nor before, to hear the mighty words "Let there be a bang!"

Bill Slim, now?

 

I still dont see how you can say that God just existed but not the first atoms that created the big-bang. It is the same principle: nothing created them, they were just there. Believing that God just existed, you should also be able to accept the 'theory' that those atoms also just existed and were not created by anyone or anything. saying otherwise, then there are faults to believing that God just existed.

Going back to the Evil: God is all-powerful and all-good and all-knowing. Would he not 'eliminate' those people (Adolf Hitler for instance) that he knew were going to turn out to be extremely evil people and cause pain and suffering for millions of people? If he is all-knowing, then he would know what Adolf and the like would do. If all-powerful, it would be within his power to eliminate them. If all-good, he would do it as he would save millions of people from pain, suffering, and death.

 

The 'god' logic is:
Something must have created us as eveything must have a creator........so there must be a god.
Note that to accept this theory you have to suspend your belief in everything having a creator once you get to your god.
However in all the history of this planet not one single scrap of evidence has ever been produced that can prove the existence of a god in any shape or form-and millions of devotees have tried, believe me they tried!

 

And nor have any of the know-alls proved He doesn't exist!
Absence of evidence isn't the same thing as evidence of absence!

[ 31. March 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

Oh thats very clever. Now you prove to me the world isn't inhabitated by 6 ft tall invisible rabbits from another dimension that cant inter-react with anything in ours.
Neither has it been shown that Zeus never existed, or Thor, or the tooth fairy. You must be struggling to advance this lame excuse.

 

You didn't read my post... I never said those atoms didn't exist. Of course they did, without them there would have been no matter to condense and then explode.

But those atoms were made of smaller particles and those smaller particles were made of energy. Where did that energy come from? If you want to just say cientifically "it was just there". Fine. Or if you want to make theories about where did that energy come from, well. you've just reached an infinite point in research. And whether reaching an infinite number of causes or one which was just there; then you've reached that Last Cause to everything. But that's how Aristotle calls it. If you don't want to name it anyway it's up to you. If you don't like us calling it God it's up to you. But it is there.

And about evil. Men were born free and that freedom means that they have the option whether to live peacefully or kill each other. God doesn't kill men and he doesn't prevent men from getting killed. Why? Because he gave them one quality: freedom.

The statements about if God existed he would have prevented the Holocaust are just so-dettrited that I simply won't argue, just ignore them.

If you think yourselves yourselfs atheists, read the Bible first so you know exactly what you don't believe in. And then you can try reading some classic philosophy and even Nietzsche. Then we'll discuss.

 

mkenny,
Actually, the same "scientists" who proclaim God can't exist because THEY can't find any evidence to prove it, are quite happy to loudly proclaim the existence of alien life, despite the fact they can't find any evidence to prove that either.
That's called trying to have your cake and eat it.
The Holocaust "argument" is exactly the same as the kid who stops believing in God, because he asked Him for a bike for xmas and it didn't arrive.
Look at Billy Graham's evangelical crusade in Britain in the Fifties. The country was experiencing unknown economic stability, record low inflation and unemployment, and unprecedented consumer spending. Yet THOUSANDS flocked to see him to hear the message, and thousands more converted because they saw the new-found wealth as God's blessing for not abandoning the faith, DESPITE all they had suffered in ww2.
It's significant that faith started to falter in the sixties when THEIR kids, who had mostly never experienced the same levels of hardship and suffering, declared religion irrelevent and turned their backs on it. And the rest of us are STILL cleaning up THEIR mess because of it.

[ 31. March 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

*DP

[ 31. March 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

Of course it is! You've never seen Harvey then?!

 

The answer to question about me having seen Harvey should be obvious from the quote I gave in the post. I am sure you can work out the answer.

Quote:

"If you think yourselves yourselfs atheists, read the Bible first so you know exactly what you don't believe in. And then you can try reading some classic philosophy and even Nietzsche. Then we'll discuss."

'The Bible' Which part? The Christian one? i.e. the one which took over the Jewish Holy Book and then claimed it is a Christian book when it plainly is not.

The Torah? Which seems to have parts in it that do not appear in the Old Testament. Funny that this once source has been given 2 'translations'
Most of the ideals held up as Christian inventions that changed the world are in fact steals from earlier Civilisations. These 'self-evident' truths seem to have been widely known and striven for in many a civilisation and can not be claimed as unique to Christianity.
Pehaps some thought should be given to the old tradition in spring of making a 'fool' king for a while and then sacraficing him to the gods to ensure a good harvest Striking similarity there to the Easter myths do you not think?
Ps. not only is there no evidence of any God there is no evidence of a real man called Jesus either.

 

Considering the Bible's part of the Judao-Christian traditions, it would be more of a scandal if there weren't similarities between the interpretations.
There's evidence for a real man named Yahweh/Jesus etc-I suggest you visit the National Geographic website.
As for the "argument" that God can't exist because science can't come up with a repeatable lab experiment to prove it, when they stop contradicting themselves by NOT applying the same criteria to the existence of alien intelligences, the rest of us might be more prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I know all the evidence about there being A MAN called Jesus but I repeat there is no evidence that the Jesus of the New Testament ever existed.
Perhaps you could explain the contradictions in the 3 versions of the Nativity (one at least is completely wrong)and I welcome any historical evidence about Herod being alive in the period claimed for the birth of Jesus It seems Herod died well before the claimed date of birth for a Jesus.

 

Quote:

"As for the "argument" that God can't exist because science can't come up with a repeatable lab experiment to prove it, when they stop contradicting themselves by NOT applying the same criteria to the existence of alien intelligences, the rest of us might be more prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt"

I agree with you. The Jesus myth has as much going for it as the stories about Alien abductions and green men on Mars.

 

Herod died in 7BC. It was proven years ago that the Christian calendar was miscalculated, because the guy doing it assumed (erroneously) that there had been a year zero to account for. Add other human errors over the centuries-bingo.
Again, have a look at the Nat. Geo. website.
There is also evidence that the Jesus of the New Testament was an adept in the Nazarene community on the shores of the Dead Sea; hence "Jesus the Nazarene". Nazareth didn't exist until 3 centuries after he died, his "birth" there being due to misunderstandings and mistranslations of the original documents.
Same with Judas-originally Sicarii, not Iscariot. The Sicarii were a Jewish "resistance" group who assassinated "collaborators" with the Romans by stabbing a thin metal spike through the base of the skull into the brain. This left no visible mark, so they were able to claim that the victim had been struck down by God.
I was referring to scientific hypocrisy which insists that alien life MUST exist, without offering any hard and fast proof, and the same people stating that God CAN'T exist using the excuse of there being no proof.
Who mentioned "Green men from Mars", or "Alien Abductions"?

 

Quote:

"Herod died in 7BC. It was proven years ago that the Christian calendar was miscalculated, because the guy doing it assumed (erroneously) that there had been a year zero to account for. Add other human errors over the centuries-bingo"


Not quite. Despite your attempt to confuse things by assuming other 'unknown' errors of calculation (perhaps you could post them as it seems no one else has found them?)it is obvious that Herod died BEFORE the date of Birth for a Jesus (3BC) No Herod and no massacre.
However if you really are interested in the subject scour your sites for the Roman Census said to have taken place in 3BC and the name of the Govenor of Syria as quoted in the New Testament.

 

Go look at:
The Online Reference Book (Ancient History).
The Nat.Geo. website.
Talking History Discussion Forum
History World " "
www.archaeologica.org
Ananova archaeological news
The only one trying to confuse the issue is you.

[ 31. March 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

OK, let's see.

What are you talking about? The Old Testament is the Jewish Toráh. The New Testament is entirely made by Christians. Whether the Bible you've got at home and the one you read in the local library do not include some parts of the Jewish Toráh —which is not the only Holy text used by Jews— is a matter of the editor and translator. Maybe it's a version made by Christian Christians or Jehováh's witnesses who decided to forget about languages and play censors...

Stealing is a rather silly word to use in the philosophical context we're discussing. No philosopher in History has ever said something really new, not even Plato or Aristotle. People before them had already thought the same thing. If you read modern philosophy you'll see that it is very similar to the philosophy of the Three Great —Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Erich Fromm's book about love is just a very deep analysis of Plato's "Symposium"...

And Christiniaty is the summon of many other philosophies; Plato's "not to respond injustice with more injustice", Jewish "Live and let live" and many other similar theories which are very similar to more ancient asiatic beliefs. It is not unique, but it has been the most influential.

A man called Yehosu'a of Nazareth who lived between 7 b.C and 35 a.C. did exist. There are more than one historical documents and evidences of it. Even if you don't believe in God, you cannot deny by any circumstance the existance of a Jewish philosopher of the 1st century named Jesus.

And about God. There are many scientific analysis of God's existance. Philosophy is the mother of all sciences and therefore, philosophical onthological and theological studies throughout History are scientific investigations of God.

Let's see how these scientists concluded:

Thales of Miletus: There a Divine Origin of water, the main element of life.

Anaximandro: "The finite can only be born by the Infinite".

Pithagoras: "Everything has its origin in the undivisible and absolute Number One —# 1— and from that comes the duality of Nature —# 2—; day and night, man and woman..."

Xenophanes: There's an Omnipotent and Immutable God.

Heraclitus: The only permanent reality is movement (a supreme energy who keeps motion).

Parmenides: God doesn't exist. God is. Because what exists is finite.

Anaxagoras: The Universe is product of a Trascendent Mind —and that is all notion which isn't type, as unity and entity are. In the kantian system it is to go beyond the limits of posible experience.

Socrates: "Everything existing must be product of a Supreme Intelligence"

Plato: "There's a Maximun Idea, from which all ideas —and the universe— come from".

Aristotle: There's a Last Cause and a Contingent Entity.

Sir Thomas Hobbes: "You can know that God is, not what is".

To be continued...

 

You're not implying the Tooth Fairy does NOT exist, or are you?