The Waffen SS threads...

Theres always been strife between em, including those in same uniform in Germany when I served. Saw many a debacle in the Belgian bar at Rheindhalen on a Friday night.

But no your points taken pzr, and I think I am in remiss regarding the political aspect, as Razin points out. King Leopold had made a peace with the Germans after military defeat.
There are 2 ways of looking at this, one my way, the invader remains, the peace was made because of occupation etc etc, and the fight goes on...Good job it did by the way...

Or the one I have tended to sideline, but one that can be used legitimately for anyone joining up in Belgium to fight the allies...Be they Russian or American, Canadian, British, or French...That my government has made peace, I am at peace with the Germans, I am free to join them in their fight against our enemies...That would ring much truer in my mind, which I gladly admit I have not looked at from that point of view, but would ring much truer in my mind if in that case the govt of my country Belgium in this case has declared war on the allies. Or is at war with the allies...then I can join whatever branch of the axis armed forces that I'm allowed to, Kriegsmarine, SS, Luftwafe, land army whatever.
Nothing wrong with that, but hold on, has my present govt gone to war with the allies? Am I at liberty to be seen as defending my nation by joining any one in the fight that my govt has not declared themselves to be at war with?

But I must admit, its not a pointI have considered until now.

 

Interesting. I do not see where I am conveying a hostile attitude towards you. One of the fallacies of the internet, inability to accurately read emotion. I was simply countering your comments.

For example:
1. You reference the book "The Last Knight of Flanders” as a source that lacks any examples which put Schrijnen into a good light. I countered by asking for examples in the book that put him in the negative. Valid question I would think.

2. You stated “It's simply one of the rules of being a historian that you cross-check every available source. A veteran is a source so what he tells you has to be checked.” I replied that Carl was talking from the perspective of a friend not that of a Historian. I asked pretty much if it was proper to ask for validated sources from a friend when they are sharing their experiences.

3. By your comments, my perception is that you have condemned every SS soldier as guilty and a bad individual who has to provide proof that they are not. For example:
a. “the man joined the SS and all we have is his own word that he behaved as good as he said he did.”
b. “I've build up several friendships with veterans of the Waffen-SS but I will never ever take their version of history for granted without checking multiple sources.” I do not consider this a friendship
c. “I'm not here to judge Schrijnen” combined with “with a statement in which somebody - in this case an SS veteran - puts himself in a favourable light” and “the man joined the SS and all we have is his own word that he behaved as good as he said he did” contradicts your ‘not judging’ Schrijnen.

As a historian, I would think that you would have understood being asked to validate your points. If you have issues than send me a PM. If not, then lets stay on task here. As far as I am concerned, there is no quarrel here.

 

Hi BW, your welcome. Also, that was the (posted above) impression I got from talking wth others from Belgium. I guess it all boils down to a matter of opinion depending on whom you talk with? ;-)) I know four others wo are from Flanders-two of which are on this site. I can't speack for those two here-but I can speak for the other two who are members of either or both: WTG :: Index and or www.warrelics.eu/forums/

Cheers ;-))

 

H

i Mate-will do. Also, I had to edit a post because I put in the wrong first name to the Foreign Ministers relative and thanks to posting something while two thoughts ahead ;-D

 

How so? Please explain. Best regards-Snoopy.

 

Hi Timo-thank you very much for the nice compliments and such. You also have my mutual respect for many reasons-one of them being that I know you know what your talking about and from past experiences of sharing things with you here, I KNOW you always do your homework with a lot of great research done behind your findings. Not to stray too far off-topic ;-)) Do you remember the thread about the Malmedy Massacre-from years ago? I remember you were quite helpful for me there as well as in other Waffen SS-related threads.

I also appreciate your pointing out to me a statement I made about others making blanket statements concerning the Waffen SS. I can't truthfully say if Remy's statements through Susanne and to me-are
based on proven fact. I can only go by what he told us that day we spent with him and his Wife in their apartment.

I don't have any reason that I can to doubt at least his Combat stories and bravery. I saw 2-3 of his photo-albums and asked him many questions at the time about some of those photos. I saw photos that he took during combat including one that-had I been there-would have made me soil my underwear. Remy had several such photos he took-and the one that im referring to made the hair stand up on the back of my neck-so to speak. This photo stood out for me because he took it while hiding in some tall grass-showing at least three T-34s passing so close to his position that all he had to do was to simply reach out and could touch them as they passed him by. Not that Remys bravery can be questioned to any degree-the man was the bravest of all veterans I have ever met or corresponded with-meaning no disrespect in any way, shape or form-to those other veterans. ;-))

Sorry for my rant but--I do see your point in telling "hear-say" stories that I can't prove and Remy can't do so as he passed away a couple of years back. One thing in his defense though, I do believe his stories are true based on the factual proof I heard and saw-while at his home for those some 12-14 hours. Susanne and I saw papers that mentioned him in them for his combat behavior as well as other things-translated of course by Susanne. Some of these papers included period copies of his being "Mentioned in Dispatches" and other documents of the type. I do regret that I never asked him for copies of his original copies-I never thought about it I guess? Anyway, had I had those copies, there could be absolutely no question about who Remy was as well as his deeds and such.

One story I remember that is not published in The Last Knight of Flanders-or that other book printed that is about him, is the story he told me of when he was stationed on the Leningrad Front-the one shortly mentioned somewhere above-in which he could have been Courts-martialed and drummed out of Waffen SS service.

With all that Remy did tell us--and trying to be as neutral as possible in my opinions, I just don't have any reason to doubt anything he told us. The samething goes for all of the U 181 Vets, the other Uboat vets Susanne and I met as we toured Germany, and RKT Vets like GJ RKT Michael Possinger-who we accidently met when we were staying as Forsthaus Grasack-in Bavaria.

I do imagine that there were embillishments from some Vets on some things they told us-or it could also be chalked up with remembering things but not fully correct-same goes for me a lot of times ;-))

Take care Timo, and as always-I love your postings.

Sincerely--Carl.

 

Well said Ike. I can't find fault with yours and Timo statements because you both made great points. Thanks again and ill still have to owe you a bit ;-))

 

Well, that is exactly the documentary to which I posted links and that originated this new discussion. Here it is.

 

I am pointing out that it is easy for people from the outside (Americans) to look at how the situation was in an occupied country like Belgium and arrive at misleading conclusions -- because the U.S. has not suffered enemy occupation in a long time as compared to several European countries. Thus the comparison -- put yourself into the shoes of those in the situation and it will suddenly become less easy to sympathize with those on the other side.

You don't think the situation compares ? Try this: A powerful and successful Latin American army invades Texas and conquers most or all of it. Hispanics in Texas who are American citizens are torn by the conquest -- after all, ethnically the invaders are similar to them and like them, are Catholics. The language of the invaders is much closer if not identical -- and so some tens of thousands of these American citizen Hispanics opt to join a volunteer legion of the invading army.

Now compare that hypothetical situation to what happened in Belgium. A powerful and successful Germanic army invaded Belgium and conquered all of it. Flemish Belgians are torn by the conquest -- after all, ethnically the invaders are more similar to them than the Walloon Belgians, the invaders also practice Protestantism, and the invaders' language is much more similar to Flemish than is French. Some (tens of thousands?) of them opt to join volunteer legions of the invading German Army.

Yes, there was and still is bickering in Belgium between the Flems and the Walloons. It has gone on a long time and will go on for a long time. It was not in 1940, however, a civil war -- and Belgium had every right to expect that all of its citizens would fight for Belgium (and not any other country) in the event of a war. What made the situation murkey was the behavior of the king. But even then, it was much more cut and dried than those who wish to excuse the volunteers for the Nazi legions make it out to be.

For example, most of the Belgian soldiers who fought in 1940 were imprisoned as POW's for years. The Germans treated the Belgians foremost as enemies and were tolerant only to those who turned their back on their country and collaborated. The most important thing to bear in mind is that the great majority of Belgians did -not- join the Nazi legions. For them, the Germans were "that nation" that had twice violated Belgian neutrality in little more than a quarter-century, and there was precious little understanding for those who volunteered to serve in German military units.

Knowing well how hard the feelings were, I'm honestly surprised that more of the those who volunteered to serve in the Nazi legions weren't shot in 1945. I think that the volunteers who eventually decided to move to Germany did the right thing -- they had made their choice to be with the Germans and it was in Germany they belonged.

BTW, the comparison with the invasion of Denmark is not a good one. The Belgian Army fought, even if its ability to resist was just as ineffective as other Allied armies of 1940. The resistance of the Danish Army in 1940 was almost non-existent. The occupation of Belgium followed a course different from that of Denmark as well.

Cheers

BW

 

better late than never,well said skipper,and certainly disrespectful too,pity! it does,nt have to be like that,fully in agreement with you.