The WW2 Sniper !!

Desertwolf professional snipers allmost "never" needed a second shot...!! even against a moving target...
You see beyond the lots and lots of training the snipers got at the sniper-schools in germany, most of them had been picked out because of abillity in the first place. You see many of the top-scoring german snipers of ww2 were all hunters before becoming a soldier in the wermacht, so they were allready perfectly able to hit moving targets with great accuracy...

Oh and in the case of Pelzmann, the british he shot would have most likely been at long distance, because a sniper isnt that effective when it gets close in..

KBO

 

'When he comes to Pelzmann he counts about thirty dead Englishmen in front of Pelzmann's dugout.'

This doesnt seem to indicate that Pelzman shot them from long range as then the quote wouldnt say 'in front' and it would be hard to count the bodies.


As for snipers never missing, that my friend, is way not true. Even with todats sophisticated angle measurment with wind callibiration equipment and a sniper still occasionally missis against a stationary target. In WW2, the misses would actually be more than hits. That is pretty clear if you see examples of snipers in history. If all the snipers hit their targets, then you would an army of dead in only one day of battle.

A common misconception is that whatever you have in your crosshairs is a 'hit'. That never is the case unless your in an ideal angle, range, and aire current. Usually a professional sniper would shoot a bit above and to the right,, below right, above left, etc.

 

A common misconception is that whatever you have in your crosshairs is a 'hit'. That never is the case unless your in an ideal angle, range, and aire current. Usually a professional sniper would shoot a bit above and to the right,, below right, above left, etc.

This is not particular to professional snipers, adjusting for attitude of shot and windage are basic marksmanship principles! As for professional snipers almost never needing a second shot, I think you've been watching a bit too much TV there KBO...

 

No offence KBO but the same thing crossed my mind

 

TV !! :lol: :lol:

Dessertwolf and Simon1978

Read the books: "The German Sniper 1914-45. by Peter R. Senich" and " Sniper Variations of the German K98k Rifle, by Richard D. Law"..

I would also suggest reading the interview with former SS sniper Mathias H. from tribule..

Mathias and all the other Sniper's interviewed, all said a second shot was allmost never needed, as it would be to dangerous, because if enemy snipers were in the area that could cost you your life !!

Mathias also says that because of his long history of hunting in the mountans of Austria, he would very rarely miss a moving target..

Btw modern professional sniper's today can constantly hit moving targets at 900y, with a "M24 7.62 NATO rifle" !!

Dessertwolf, the german witnessing the incident with Pelzmann was ordered with otheres to collect the dead, and place them in front of the hideout. So they were most likely shot at longe range... i cant emaging that single sniper at close range would take out 30 men, because thats impossible.. they had to have been shot at long range...

Anyways its Christsmas, so Merry Christsmas to you both

KBO

 

Thank you, and if ou'll pardon the pun, I look forward too locking horns with you in the new year!

 

Merry christmas KBO!!

And while were loking horns, I suggest you revise ur opinion.

Simply stated, either you misunderstood the sources or they were as we would say in simple terms, 'showoffing'. The idea that a sniper never misses is simply nonsensical. A sniper more often than not misses and the evidence is very clear. For example a sniper in Normandy shot 50 bullets a day (cant remember the name or the unit, but he was the best of his outfit) as he states in his diary. Are u suggesting that this sniper killed 50 troops a day? If that is so, then that would mean a sniper would kill around 20 men everyday as routine, and thats the absolute minimum, as any source would tell you that snipers certainly fired more bullets than 20 rounds a day.

And while were at it, a modern elite sniper misses a hell of alot. If you would just read swat magazine, ud see that the average sniper is praised for hitting fast moving targets regularly and it just doesnt croos any persons mind to imply that even the best most elit sniper in the world would hit his target with every shot (and remember this is with modern highly calibirized weaponry.) Heck, if it was that easy, then why not arm every one with a damned sniper, even if only the elites could hit their targets regularly, the erookies wouldnt too bad. Hey its just put the crosshair on target isnt it?

 

Ok, quit sniping at one another... ha... so what' our final concensus to the definition of "sniping" anyway? Can you snipe with a pistol, a shotgun, or a MG (on full auto), or a bow and arrow, or does it have to be a bolt-operated or semi-automatic rifle.

 

there is also presision shooting which has similar rules of the use of a weapon.

 

It would seem that most of these definitions are interlocking. This makes it hard to just define what sniping is.

 

Thanks

No can do

Dessertwolf, how in gods given given name can a sexty year old man remember such a toughtless thing as how many bullets he shot a day... its simply impossible to know, that is if he didnt keep a very very precise diary...

Btw you said "outfit" Professional Sniper's in the German army didnt work in outfit's... They were put whereever on the front they were needed, and they didnt belong to any outfit.. The guy your talking about was probably just normal sharpshooter picked out in a companie to carry scope on his rifle..

Mathias H. qoutes: In every company there were some soldiers equiped with scopes but had no special training. They hit reliable up to 400m and did a very good job Those soldiers didi their normal duty within the companies and were not able to get that high „kill-rate“ than the real snipers. [/quote]

And again i say, Mathias H. from Tribule says like all the other's interviewed "A second shot was allmost never needed, as a second shot can reveal your position and get you killed..."

Also Mathias H. says most of his kills were done at the distance of 400-600m, because at those ranges he could identify an Nco.. He additionally says that the furthest target he has ever shot and killed was a standing man at 1200m..

Also remember SWAT snipers routinely shoot's after coins at 600-900y, and they are required to hit them... And they mostly do.. (That most be written in your SWAT magazine ?!)

Offcourse im not saying snipers dont sometimes miss, but professional snipers are experts in assesing if the target´is worth the shot or not..

Btw sry for the sketchy english

Regards, KBO

 

Well KBO, my Swat magazies certainly dont mention no such absurd thing.

Well anyway, to tell you the truth, im not going to waste your time anymore , if you indeed believe that a sniper is superhuman and nearly never needs another shot, well then that its your choice

Correct me if im wrong, but do the allied snipers dont need a second shot?

 

I think what KBO is saying is that a sniper never takes another shot from the same position. If he misses the target he will still move to another position and aim at a different target, lest he be spotted. This is what "Mathias H." seems to be saying, two shots is too many to be safe; either you disable the target with shot number one or you let him go.

 

Well that would make much more sense, but what im getting from KBO is that a sniper nearly never misses.

 

Roel right on


Dessertwolf well thats because what your guessing is wrong

Btw SWAT sniper's do indeed shoot after coins, (Im not kidding) and im VERY surprised that it isnt mensioned in your "magazine"...

Oh and btw, there were no "allied snipers" during WW2, only Sharpshooters or to be more precise, they were like Mathias H. says about some German companies, just picked out to cary a Springfield with scope. So that if a sniper or MG42 should be incountered they would have an effective counter... (allthough there were no U.S. sniperschool until after the war, wich was primarily based on German sniping tactics)

There's no "Super-human" thing about it

Regards, KBO

 

But "the allies" is not just the US, KBO. Are you saying there were no British, Canadian, Soviet, Polish, Czech, Belgian, French, Dutch, Brazilian, New Zealand, Australian, South African, Rhodesian,... organized snipers either? Only men picked when encountered because they shot well, not trained for it?

 

Yes offcourse my bad i was only thinking about the western allies as i thouhgt we were talking more about Normandy, but yes i did forget the English "Marksmen".. sorry !

KBO

 

That begs another question, a sniper is not always a marksman, right? What if a sniper keeps shooting and missing, will he be stripped of his professional license by the international snipers association? Do you have to pass a test to become a "sniper"? Or can any 10 y/o Iraqi child pick up an AK-47 and become a "sniper".

 

KBO: To say the truth, I thought you were mentioning that snipers nearly never need another shot. An absurd notion as im sure you know. Im sorry I misunderstood.

SWAT members do NOT shoot at coins in their standard application training. The standard training procedure with the DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle) involves the ability to make a moving headshot from two hundred yards and hit a thumbnail size object from the same distance. To qualify, you have to be able to make such hits regularly (7 out of 10 times to be precise). If the SWAT member is able to hit the target 9 out of 10 times, he is qualified to undergo further training to move on to the rooftop of the white house as a presidential lookout. (After a pshyc test naturally which he has to undergo each month.)

What are you implying by putting qoutes around magazine??? :angry: