Tibet

Nobody cares because their Chineese is the conclusion I came to a while ago, most dont know or dont care just like that large parts of the CPR and the ones America built were built by the Chineese at heavy price.

You make it sound like he killed every single one of the people that starved. Last time I checked you can kill more than one person with an accident. Take for example the most extreme example a nucluear warhead is detonated on your population while you are testing it.

The famine was caused by overseeding and moving of farmers into cities and subsidizing the farms into biggers ones. Ask a farmer what would happen to the crop if they put 2 or 3 times the normal amount of seeds they ussualy do in the same area. The crop would be likely to fail would it not? Why would he want the crop to fail in the first place?

Also I cant find anything about these age reform programs care to fill me in? Also you say both programs when I could only find one mentioned in your post, so what was the otherone?

 

though they were paid half the wages of a irishman ,the chinese were a lot less trouble on payday(they drink tea)...the work was dangerous as were many jobs in the 19th century.even at half pay ,it was a lot more money than they were makin in china.......in the 20s stalin enforced collectivisation on the kulaks,this failled in a spectacular way ,as always and millions of russians starved...of course stalin did not kill them himself his planning did

 

Major woody seems to feel strongly about all things not western.

 

well i do feel rather strongly about enforced collectiveism and other murderous policys embraced by stalin ,mao and pol pot ...to be fair though kaiser,these theorys were invented in the west by a westerner ...karl marx

 

Though in the eyes of Karl Marx it was neither enforced nor murderous. In his view everyone would willingly submit their own interests to that of the collective because the collective in turn would serve the individual. In reality it turned out quite differently...

 

yes ..farmers can be quite stubborn in the belief that the crops and animals they raise by thier own sweat and backbreaking work ,should in fact belong to them and not to some apperatchek with a clipboard and a rifle squad....silly farmers ,how dare they try to hide enough grain to feed their family through the winter...now they must be severely punished

 

yes i agree..But then again,does that make Mao a evil man?Stalin is because even in his own personal life he was a sick man.But Mao,i suspect that everything he did was to realise his "utopia" and that by he is not a person that is evil on its own.Sure he should have known about the great famine and all...but like all leaders of a state which includes Mr Bush,they must have been fed things they wanted to hear.

 

well ...yes ,kaiser ....the man who still leads the guiness book of world records as the greatest killer of all time ? i think we can safely say it... he was evil ...unless your one of those people who thinks ... ...aw ..what the heck ...there,s way too many chinese anyway...a million here ,a million there ,whats the difference.....

 

Well facts don't lie.We here are all aware of what Mao did,mind you.

But what's the definition of evil?As far as i am concerned,unlike stalin,Mao's picture is still up on the Forbidden City.Is one evil for a mistake in his plan that undoubtedly cause so much death?He should be at fault,i agree.But calling him evil is another different thing.

The inventor of gunpowder should be called evil then.

 

his picture is still up because his political decendants are still in power..if his plan killed your parents and siblings and every other person in singapore would he be evil then.?..and if taiwan belongs to china why shouldnt singapore also belong ...isnt it mostly chinese ..and korea and vietnam...japan would certainly belong if it werent for that dang storm...

 

Your ideas are amusing.I think you should patronise the history section of your nearest bookshop.

 

Some stats on Mao's regime (not saying it was his fault :roll: )...

Deaths
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M

ripped shamelessly from the Atlas of DEATH

which you can find here...
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm


Of course I am sure this amout of bloodshed would have happened whether or not Mao was in charge... Kaiser is right, you cannot simply blame Mao and communism, they were but two factors in a plethora of the economic and social problems Chian posessed... The country was so backward and war-ravaged that millions would have died regardless of what happened, basically the Chinese had the choice between fast-industrialisation (and the inevitable mass deaths involved) or remaining a backward state and succumbing to foreign invasion, probably Japanese (and the inevitable mass deaths involved)

 

if i am mixed up about something ,please feel free to correct me...to me its puzzleing why a young chinese man ,raised in a free market ,thriveing capitalistic state like singapore would regard the worlds biggest killer of chinese people ,and the most repressive of tyrants to be some kind of abraham lincoln...and that you feel the chinese of taiwan should be handed over the reds like so many trussed up chickens ...as it is quite obvious the taiwanese dont desire this even a little bit...are your views on mao and taiwan prevalent among your peers ,kaiser ?...seriously ,i dont condem you ,your entitled to your opinion ,after all you dont live in the prc... is this notion promoted in your schools ,or did you decide these things on your own...again ,im not demeaning you, i really am curious

 

well ...ok china was a balkanized state of fueding warlords which was in fact invaded by the japanese who did kill millions of chinese ...where is it written that rapid industrialation requires millions of deaths?..south korea did this in the 50s and 60s i dont recall a huge body count...so you mean if chaing kai shek had won against mao ,he also would have purged 40 million innocent chinese peasants..taiwan also rapidly industrialized ..i dont think they had to do the great leap of a million dead chinese ...did they?in fact the only place where they seem to have these great government sponsered famines and political gulags is in these wonderful communist utopias...but we should place the blame ..uh, where again?

 

You are putting words into my mouth.

Anyway,to your questions:

We in singapore are educated to make balanced arguments and to take pragmatic approaches to things as Roel will testify.We don't simply condemn all things Red without thinking it through in our brains if that's what u mean.

And also,just for your information and just you only as i assume most of the well-informed readers in this forum would already know....Taiwanese ,and a significant amount of them mind you, would like to return to China provided they be treated like Hong Kong.Again if you do not know the conditions China gave hong Kong,you can ask me or Ricky or roel.Oh and anyway,China's unlike the china you read about,if you read about them.

Right i hope it answers your questions.Glad to be of service.

 

The famines may not have been Mao's intention as they were Stalin's, but he was definitely to blame for moving millions of intellectuals to the countryside to work themselves to death. He also had quite a bit to say in who was sent to labour camps and such.

Majorwoody, I think you're really stretching Kaiser's point far beyond what he said, or even beyond what you can reasonably assume.

 

roel ...kaiser said that ...A. mao,s not an evil man ,sure he killed millions of chinese ,but some of them were unintentional...if a dictator who kills millions of innocents is not one who could be called evil ,then who can be called evil?...i dont know about the netherlands but here in the usa a man who kills even one person in cold blood is considered a bad guy and can be put to death or spend forever in prison... ..B. taiwan is part of china and should presumably should welcome the peoples liberation army on to their shores...as kaiser has pointed out , the forbidden city still celebrates the life and works of the worlds greatest killer...any taiwanese who wish to reunite with the motherland should be urged to cross the straights at once and begin their happy stay at camp re-education...no doubt these are young adults,like the students of south korea who wish to rejoin the north and send the evil us army home at once..or like young kaiser who likes to veiw chairman mao while wearing his rose tinted glasses....i guess i shouldnt be too supprised ...the tenured marxest thought police are very well entrenched in all the most prestigious campuses in the usa

 

If you are so sure he is evil what is evil? What is the definition of evil? What makes something or someone evil?

If a man kills another man and is put the death, how come if a man kills 10 man in war should he not be put to death 10 times? If not how is that a just society? The man that kills one is unrightious but the one that kills 10 is held high in his own right, how is this just?

I dont understand I always thought Taiwan was a country not a province of China. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Is that a personal attack? Or did I misunderstand your post?

I doubt believe that is a suitable deterent because it seems that there are weekly if not daily gun related deaths in Detroit alone. A large percentage of time unsolved, or the person wins the trail, sometimes an innocent man is put to death. There is almost no longer a need for witnesses because of "experts".

 

You cannot see the difference between a soldier killing in battle by the authority of his nations leaders and a murderer taking life in violation of the rule of law and merely because he chooses to do so?

Stating that someone sees something through rose colored (or tinted) glasses has a rhetorical meaning (look it up) and is not considered an insult.

There is no credible, verifiable evidence that an innocent man was ever executed in the US. Not sure about other places that don't have the safeguards that are in place here.

PS I'm aware that you can quote many people who claim that people who were executed were innocent. According to some no executed person was ever guilty. I'm however referring to evidence not opinion.

 

gunter ...killers who face the death sentence in america often do so because of " special circumstances. "..a man who tortures and sodimizes a small child for instance, before bashing in the tiny scull would be a good canidate in the usa. for lethal injection ...you feel a combat veteran ,say mabey a red army artillery man who might have helped kill hundreds of germans , mostly soldiers ,this brave soldier should be considered the same kind of scum as the child killer in modern america ......one is no more evil than the other...because really what is evil...what makes one evil ?...perhaps your right ,lets hang the artillery man (after all ,he killed more people ....) and we will let the child killer go ...because ...really, who are we to judge ... after all, evil cannot be defined... ,right gunter ?