Tito and Yougoslavian Partisans

Because Tito died, we ended up in the civil war 1990´s. You know that. Tito was no there to "freeze" the extreme politicians.Just like in Russia people want Stalin back, I am sure in areas people want Tito back. Ps. I was 16 months in Bosnia Doboj and Skopje Macedonia listening to people.

 

Kai. I sometimes feel I live in a sterile room isolated from unfortunate events around me - I care just for my personal matters and avoid contacts with unpleasant people. All I really care for is my profession, my family and active engagement in environmental preservation predominantly some species of wild animals and my seven pets. If you are looking for perpetrators or their supporters, I am the wrong choice. You are perhaps perplexed with my point of view, but, obviously, we are seeking truth at different sources. I read serious books, not magazines and daily mainstream press. I have read your other post in another tread. What should I say?

 

From at least the wiki article it appears that PDA was not without external support prior to autumn of 44, that support may have been quite limited but it was there.

The either A or B phrasing of whether the PDA was a regular army or a guerilla army (even without the derogatory "bunch of gangs" bit) is at least from what I've read misleading. They seam to have performed both roles at times. Doing so well is actually quite complement few forces have managed to transition from one to the other and maintained significant competency during and shortly after the transition.

As for the third item there is little need to take into account those various items. Simply stated they made a significant contribution to the allied victory. That they did so under the constraints they did makes it more commendable but doesn't lesson the contribution. One thing I haven't seen mentioned much was their impact on the decisions of Bulgaria and Rumania to leave the axis. Their successes and strategic location must have made those decisions easier for the respective parties (the Soviet advances obviously playing a key role as well).

My question wasn't really off topic as I was asking about the participation of those veterans in the Partisan movement. likewise the reference to their activities in Spain you supplied could easily be considered relevant background information.

*** edit for ***
I notice that Tito makes an appearance in that article as well, which makes it even more relevant.

 

good call.....super complex...and because of the complexity, it was dynamic and grew multiple, entangled tentacles of hate, revenge, etc......2 examples

Air Force officers staged a coup against joining the Axis !etc.....

'''On 6 April 1941 the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was invaded from all sides by the Axis powers of Germany, Italy, and their ally Hungary.'' ...their ''ally''!?

I can see how Tamino can describe the brutality there...I have read on it before.....seems like a lot of 'revenge' going on...I'll state again--once again in history, war unleashed, gave ''credibilty'' to, and acquiesced the horrible human acts that simmer in the human species..........

 

@bronk7

This is how the country has been dismembered by the "neighbors". On top, left is Slovenia, divided among Italy, Germany and Hungary. If you scroll a bit down, you may see a photo of Italian-German border crossing which was then at the north-east suburb of our capital, Ljubljana. Today that looks ridiculous, but that was brutal aggression by three much larger nations. Romania and Bulgaria have also participated aggression. Only Greeks behaved like good neighbor should behave.

 

Appreciate the thread everyone. Getting a nice education on this occupation. Much was unknown to me besides the basics.

 

Tamino, help me out please, I'm a bit puzzled now. I thought Ljubiana was incorportated in the German sector (Laibach) ?

 

Province of Ljubljana or Provincia di Lubiana was Italian occupation zone of Slovenia. It was occupied by Germany in 1943 after the capitulation of Italy.
You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Ljubljana

 

That is correct YP!

At the beginning of the war Ljubljana was under Italian occupation and after capitulation of Italy, the Third Reich has occupied the city in September 1943 along with territories previously held by Italy.
It is interesting that Ljubljana was the only completely fortified European capital during the war. Fortification was completed on February 23rd 1943. Ljubljana was closed with fortifications for 1170 days. It was strictly forbidden to leave the city without permission.
Below, you can watch Italian documentary about the occupation of Ljubljana. On the photo below the video you may see remnants of a bunker.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmmwUJsy7Uw[/media]

Remnants of fortification still exist. Here is a Bunker at the north of the city:

 

Thanks Tamino that what's I thought. Poor inhabitants who changed nationality three times between 1941 and 1945.

 

But, after the war, Slavko Avsenik, a Slovenian folk musician has conquered Germany as the Polka King of Germany.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwLdjv5Ml5M

 

Lol. I always liked polka because it's so cheerful and funny
I remember one summer when I was on a vacation at my family at the seaside there was a guy who played polka on accordion or "harmonika" as we ex Yugoslavs call it. The memories...

By the way, I never knew that Ljubljana was the only completely fortified city during the war. Thanks for the info.

 

[SIZE=10.5pt]From time distance that's romantic part of the story: air force officers in fancy uniforms decide to fight the enemy and overthrow defeatist government. But what followed wasn't knight's reaction of German Army. What German army did in response was an outright war crime: Operation Retribution (Ger.: Unternehmen Strafgericht) that commenced on 6 April and concluded on 7 or 8 April. The operation began with terror bombing of Belgrade, without declaration of war, the city was destroyed, civil casualties were significant: 17.000 to 24.000 died in ruins of the destroyed city. This was just a bitter foretaste of what was to come.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Again, by numbers:[/SIZE]

Demographic losses.... 1.985.000
Dead...................1.014.000

EDIT: This is what Yugoslav Air forces had at disposal to fight against German Luftwaffe:

 

Yes, call it what you like. I spoke to doctors on both sides and people on both sides and was there. I could say a thing or two more here, but I can see politically it is not clever. Just like the Finnish civil war. Emotions take place of brains. Then again it is interesting that the communists in Finland decided to fight Stalin in 1939, while in Yugoslavia the families made of serbs,croatians and muslims decided to split up and start killing each other. Explain that Tamino.

 

I can see it from a modern day perspective where the US has the overwhelming power, where there is no way there can be similar retaliation, so the US will bomb, etc at will...do you think this was part of the German's mindset?

 

That's different. Finnish people and Finnish communists are the same nation. Balkan is much more complicated.
I live in a large building with around 500 people. I know at least 100 of them and of that 100 people there are Croatians, Serbs, Muslims, Slovenes, Hungarians, Macedonians, Bulgarians and Montenegrins. That's just the part of them which I know. You see how many people of different religions and nations we have in basically <100 sq/meters. Why did we always fight on the Balkan? If some sort of a conflict breaks out everyone sticks to the people of their nation or religion. Then there are people who spread propaganda against other nations and religions and BOOM, a war breaks out. It has always been like that and I'm afraid that always will be.

 

The World isn't so red-and-white as you appear to see it. Yugoslav partizans were not fighting for ideology but for Freedom. They fought at the right side - for the cause of Allies, against Fascist-Nazi scum and their willing collaborators.


For those willing to discuss ideological aspect of the war, I have opened a separate Can Of Worms HERE.


The best definition of a partizan is »John Connor of fourties, 20th century«.

 

Without NAto the war in the Balkans would still continue?? However the 1-month+ bombing of Serbia I never understood it completely in 1999, as the Nato was forced to continue as Serbs did not give up. I think it was Ahtisaari our previous president who managed to open the talks back then.

 

With all due respect, let me recall you that you went of-topic.

 

It is true that without NATO the war would probably continue but why didn't NATO intervene earlier? They let us kill each other because it was in western interest to f*ck up Yugoslavia as much as possible and then at the end they stopped the war and acted like angels and saviours.