Top 5 Tank Destroyers

no i dont. For example, form january to april 1945 the 503rd SS Heavy Tank Battalion scored 500 enemy tank kills for the loss of only 45 Tiger II's.

Why is that ratio surprising? with 18cm of turret armor and a massive 88mm L/71 gun its no surprise the tiger II dominated the battlefield. Like I said before, its glacis plate was never penetrated in combat, and its gun mantlet was only penetrated at point-blank range by a 17 pounder using APDS ammunition. On top of that, Shermans and T-34s had to close to point blank range to penetrate its side armor, which was over 8cm thick. Combine that with a fast turret traverse rate, a fast reloading speed for such a large gun, and it had the ability to pivot turn.

here:
ttp://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-vi-tiger-ii-ausf-b-konigstiger-kingroyaltiger-tiger-ii-sd-kfz-182.htm

 

That makes more than 100 tanks destroyed per month. Do regail us with some details of the engagments that the 503rd made during this period where they destroyed even just a couple dozen enemy tanks. Do be specific. Would you care for me to cite a few engagements of the 503rd in this period? For example, do tell me how many engagements Tiger II's were in with Allied AFV in the Ardennes. Let me just note that those in Heersgruppe B saw almost no combat and what little they did see came nowhere close to a 10 - 1 kill ratio given that 13 Tiger IIs were lost to various causes.

Because you information is mostly wrong. The Tiger II had a very slow turret rotation. Its frontal armor from all accounts I have was meaningless. The ability to pivot turn is limited by the fact that Henschel engineers recommended against its use as repeated use would likely cause a transmission or final drive failure or, a broken track.
It is interesting to note that Piper in the Ardennes put his Tiger II's at the back (end) of his advancing columns to avoid their breaking down and blocking a road, to avoid their slowing down his advance, to avoid their collapsing a bridge, and in general because they were just a nusiance to him.

http://www.ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/12409-king-tiger-turret-traverse-speed.html

 

Tiger II's had a turret rotation speed of 19 seconds if the engine was a full power. Compare this to the tiger I, which took 30 seconds, and the m4 sherman which took 12 seconds. For such a heavy tank, that it a very fast turret rotation speed. And yes, pivot turning would often break the transmission and drive train, but it provided an advantage over the m4 sherman at close range, since the m4 could not pivot turn. And what do you mean its frontal armor was "meaningless"? It had the the thickest frontal armor of any tank used during WW2. and the 11:1 K/D ratio was mostly achieved on the eastern front, where the flat, open terrain meant that the KT could engage soviet tanks at distances they could not retaliate.

 

The book by Wilbeck is an unquestioning acceptance of the raw german UNCONFIRMED kills

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=A415948&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

He says this himself:

Page 126

"For Soviet losses,
very few records are available to confirm the German claims. In these instances, the
German claims are generally accepted without the benefit of verification.

I told you this earlier but obviously you missed it.

Germany reduced her own kill claims by 50% because they knew overclaiming was rife

Did that sink in? They knew there was a problem so why don't you?

Back to Wilbeck:

Page 127

"Notes: S.SS.Pz.-Abt. 503’s claims lack credibility. This battalion was never fully
equipped and only fought from January 1945 until the end of the war. Committed to the
Eastern Theater, it was split apart to many different areas under many different
commands. Its records are incomplete and cannot be verified. This battalion fought in
places like Kustrin, the Seelow Heights and in Berlin in addition to many others. Jean
Restayn claimed that two Tiger IIs destroyed 64 JS-IIs and T-34s in a brief engagement
toward the end of the war but it is doubtful that in a little over three months of combat the
battalion destroyed more than 500 Soviet tanks."

So you see this claim is total bunk.

 

There was no 11:1 kill ratio. You made it up.

 

I did not. Here is a page on the 503rd SS heavy tank battalion:

Axis History Factbook: Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 103 / 503

and another

Tiger Tank Battalions during WWII - Page 2

scroll to the bottom of the link provided above. You will see the 103rd SS heavy tank battalion destroyed approximately 500 enemy tanks (give or take a few) for the destruction of 39 Tiger II's. while the number of tanks the unit destroyed is unconfirmed, It has been confirmed that they lost 39 Tiger II's in 3 months of combat. The 11:1 (or 12:1 in this units case) is not fictional, and I certainly did not make it up.

Finally, I am very curious as why you doubt the tiger IIs performance. After all, it was the most heavily armed and armored tank of world war 2, so the very Kill/Loss ratio of their units should not be surprising. While the Kill/loss ratio may not be exact, I assure you it is close. After all, 4 tank aces including Karl Korner was assigned to this unit, so 500 kills in 3 months is perfectly believable. If you know about Karl Korner for example, he stumbled upon a large group of soviet vehicles refueling and re-arming, and using his King Tiger managed to destroy 49 russian tanks, including 11 IS-2s. While this is in large part as he caught them unprepared and by surprise, it is also in part to the amazing combat performance of the tiger II.

 

Das Reich,

None of this is verified research. Actually, it looks like the people who made the site gobbled up German claims without matching it to Soviet/Allied losses.

The April action at 45 had been debunked to the Nth time... for the claim of 500 tanks to be authentic, the Soviets would need to have lost suffered unrealistically large percentage of total losses in one battle when the bulk of their forces were fighting much bigger formations elsewhere.

You do realize that the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" claimed 250 tank kills during the Battle of the Bulge but the Allies only lost circa 500 tanks in the entire battle? Meaning that if 2nd SS Pz. Div's claims are true, then not only this division single handedly killed half of all American tanks lost, but also it would have meant the 7th Armored Division and one Task Force from 3rd Armored would be about the only unit to take tank casualties?

Anyone can make a friggin' kill claim, but only Goebbels had the balls to print it on paper...

 

Double Post

 

Alright guys, I have been watching this thread with interest, and although your discussion here about tigers is fascinating and very informative, I think you have all reached a point of the discussion where none of you are coming up with new facts but instead quoting your own previous ones over and over again.

Secondly this is a thread about tank destroyers not tigers and if you all wish to continue this thread's discussion move it somewhere else.

Back on topic please.

 

There's a big difference between the claims made in German propoganda papers and actual German after action reports.

The Tiger II's kill/loss ratio is not based on the claims made by the press, but on actual combat reports. And German combat reports tend to be very accurate and free of overclaiming.

In short the only incidents of overclaiming done by the Germans I can find is solely from press accounts.

 

Directly and comprehensively contradicted by the German Intelligence practice of reducing the collated kill claims by 50% in 1944-45.
They did not use their own totals!

 

I know we are still not on thread, but I cannot let this nonsense pass
Article on Luftwaffe over claiming
1.JmA - luftwaffe experten, claims and facts

part of a post from Kruska a German member of the forum who's father was in the Luftwaffe during WW2

http://www.ww2f.com/air-war-western-europe-1939-1945/39129-production-numbers-bob.html

 

redcoat, ALL airforces during the war massively overclaimed, the Germans were no worse at it than the Brits or US for example. And this because of the confusing nature in which air combat is conducted and the difficulty in confirming actual kills.

 

This is laughable. You actually think they did this because there was deliberate overclaiming going on? Are you serious??

Also I find it quite comforting to see that the kill claims made in the east during 1944-45 correspond extremely well with documented Soviet losses. And this directly and comprehensively contradicts your little assertion above.

 

Indeed, and the same things apply in ground warfare, especially when your forces are retreating and cannot inspect the battlefield in detail afterwards.

 

Unless the Soviet armour losses are broken down into causes I cannot see how you can claim that.

 

I can because I know the claims made by the LW & AT gun crews on top. And combining them all the claims fall way short of actual Soviet losses. A pretty good indicator that the claim to confirmation method was sound.

During the war all Tiger units claimed a combined 9,850 enemy tanks destroyed for the loss of 1,715 Tigers.

Actual Soviet tank losses during the war were in excess of 96,500 tanks, plus another 13,000 other armoured vehicles.

Add to this British, German & US tank losses during the war:
UK = 15,844
US = 5,066
DE = 23,166

 

You guys keep throwing numbers back and forth and frankly I think you could confuse an accountant, but you always seem to discount the fact of tanks being out of action due to mechanical failure. I think this is a very important statistic in determining the sucess of a TD. If a vehicle is out of action it really doesn't matter if it was knocked out or torched by its crew to prevent capture. The only difference is in crew survival. Both TD's are out of action and in the end that is what matters most.

 

Hello Proeliator,

Sorry, but don't you think there is a massive difference between over claims in regards to confusion and deliberate over claim due to "political-personal" reasons?

As for the Tiger's AFAIK, Hitler himself took personal interest into every single Tiger report. Crews who had to abandon their Tigers tried desperately to regain them - knowing about the consequences they faced if the abandoning or loss of a Tiger didn't add up to Adi's expectation.

Adi and his clique were desperate for believe in their wonder weapons, and No ONE around Hitler dared to bring "bad" news, especially not after June 44. In personal recordings of German military members who had spoken to Hitler in that time, were amazed about his statements in regards to him knowing very well about the situation and how contradicting his public statements were in the same issues.

That Tiger kills needed to be exaggerated is understood to me, since every lost Tiger had to be excused by some "good" news.

So if of a 30 Tigers probably 15 dropped out due to mechanical failure (Now Hitler read about these Tiger battle reports) another 10 got bogged down due to damaged transmissions and torn tracks - would actually leave 5 Tigers in action.
At average these 5 scored 4 kills each - so 30 tigers would have scored 120 hits. The report (which would allow the respective commander to continue his life after Hitler read the report) would show e.g. 120 Soviet tanks blasted by 10 operational Tigers = 1:12, Adi happy and could sleep well dreaming about vesting the Statue of Liberty and the respective field commander could be sure about getting killed by Soviets sooner or later rather than by Adi.
(Just my version or point of view)

Mystic? Hitting power of Wehrmacht weapons.

I had a very interesting encounter with a veteran of a Pak 75 unit. (One of those real Tank whacking guns) according to the books I read.
I was about to tell him that he was equipt with a real wonder weapon - but he was faster and said:
We hated those bastards - we had to drag that piece of sh;;t throughout the war - we were the mules.
Yes I replied, but still a great weapon right? A real T-34 killer.
Now comes his answer:
Yes, but not on its own - direct hits on one to one? I couldn't remember that, the T-34 was too strong.
We needed to place three paks in an angle. Once a T-34 was sighted the first pak took a shot so that the T-34 would turn his side onto the better positioned pak then one or two paks opened fire whacking away at average about 3-4 shoots as fast as possible. Even if the T-34 blew up in fire or smoke we still shot our 3-4 rounds at him - just to make sure - nobody was crazy enough to fire just one shot and then see if the T-34 was a goner.
So who was awarded the kill?
Answer; my dear boy we couldn’t care less as long as the tank was destroyed. Usually the Chef decided who to award the kill.

AFAIK the same 75mm was used by the PzIV right?

Back to my father;
He told me that a certain German aircraft was total rubbish but since Hitler and Goering had taken a personal liking to this aircraft the respective commanders were reminded to send in only "positive" reports of this aircraft. Even upon visits by the engineers of the aircraft factory these positive reports had to overshadow the actual technical reports.

The engineers knowing about the actual difficulties however had more or less no chance to get this aircraft on the way since the "official" technical reports could in return not justify changes in the production.

The NAZI system was a total bureaucratic system primarily based on deception towards everyone - this is where the whole shi..t backfired.

Back to the Tigers;
I would not exclude that on a certain day a TigerI or II actually blasted away 8,10 or 15 maybe even 20 Soviets. But an average of 1:11 (IMO that was Adi's wet dream or expectation).

Those 8,10,15 kills are from what I read so far always reports of dug in Tigers or moving in and out of prepared positions. They are not under artillery and Air attack.

Okay back to thread: from what I read - not so much I admit -the most frequently and successful tank destroyer on behalf of the Wehrmacht were those Grenadier Kamikazes using "geballte Ladung" (Bundle of Grenades or Hollow Charges).

Regards
Kruska

 

While the 11:1 K/D ratio of the tiger II may not be accurate, there are many instances where lone Tiger II's destroyed 20,30, and even 40 soviet vehicles.
For example: