Top Ten Armies of today

I don't see how the woman's political beliefs have anything to do with the fact that she survived gunfire by American troops. I don't justify her claim because it seems to me like a senseless want for attention on her part, but I do understand that being held hostage, then finally returning home and being shot at by friendly troops, does something to you emotionally that can't be grasped by outsiders' rational analysis.

Honestly how does her being Communist have anything to do with anything. As if all communists are known and chronic liars. But let's not get back into that...

 

Isn't that rather naive? Any avowed Communist is going to consider themselves hostile to the US. She has made many comments in the past hostile to the US. I have zero sympathy for any journalist who willingly puts themselves in harm's way in a war zone then expects their government or military to bail them out. The large ransoms paid by the Italians to these terrorists will be used to buy weapons and explosives to be used against American forces as wellas against Iraqi government forces and in terror attacks against Iraqi civilians.

BTW another thing that "can't be grasped by outsider's rational analysis" is what it is like to expose yourself to possible attack at a check point where you have no way to distinguish between civilians and terrorists/insurgents determined to blow you up. It's easy to say that a person is "trigger happy" when one is writing from a safe and protected location where there are not armed men attemting to kill you daily.

 

Well, I didn't call anyone trigger-happy, and I explained that Jeffrey was probably referring to the incident with the Dutch soldier, not to anything having to do with Americans. What I objected against was this quote:

First, I highly doubt this attention-craving and apparently self-centered and risk-seeking woman you describe is anything of a representative for all communists. Secondly such generalizations are never true, and are as naive as anything.

Note the fact that there are many more nations with soldiers in Iraq than just the Iraqi government and the USA, and all of them are put in harm's way by paying ransom. I agree with you there, and I'm not defending this woman or her story. As far as I'm concerned, two Dutchmen too many died for the cause of a Texan idealist.

 

A backhanded slap at the US President? Are not all political leaders idealists and what does the fact that he is from Texas have to do with it?
If you are referring to President Bush it would be better to say so in plain language. Do you think that The Netherlands sent troops there because of the idealism of the US President? Did they not have their own reasons for doing so? If so, why would you blame their death on the American President?

 

Not very backhanded I'd say. The fact that he's from Texas has to do with Texas being far from here, full of oil and none of our concern. If the US refuses to allow an international court in The Hague to judge American citizens, then why would Dutch soldiers have any inclination to fight for Americans? Oh, right, alliances.

The Dutch reason to enter this war and send troops to Iraq is simply to be true to their allies. It's obviously very practical in international politics to be friends with the only superpower around, and so it was probably inevitable that would war come, Dutch soldiers would be sent in. However this war was clearly one in which America was the agressor; therefore the executive command of the US armed forces really is to blame for the deaths falling among troops of any nation in Iraq now.

Why was America the agressor? If not for the WMD then it was because of the Manifest Destiny story, and so the reasons for this war were idealists. I dislike idealism, it tends to break people's links to reality, as is shown by how hard it turns out to be for democracy to be fully accepted in Iraq.

 

The Netherlands like any NATO member is only forced to militarily support the US if the US is being agressed, which of course was not even remotely the case in Iraq.
Actually a lot of NATO members refused to participate, because they were opposed to that war, but they remain allies of the US nevertheless.

NATO is not an alliance of inferiors blindly following their leader(as the Warsaw pact was), but free and sovereign nations working together to defend common values.
To participate in Iraq was a free choice of the dutch governement, no one actually forced them.

 

Try and keep on topic please!
We have numerous Iraq war / President Bush / etc topics scattered about in here & in the member's lounge.

Grieg - please stop assuming that every European is automatically anti-American.

 

NO!
One of her bodygaurds gave his life for that women, if he didn't do this she would have died! :x Lets not assume that the US troops where totally innocent, one of her highly trained bodygaurds (Italian Secret Service or something?) who survived the incident said that they didn't give warnig shots but just started shooting at the car, so maybe it has to do with trigger-happy soldiers, MAYBE!

 

Or maybe a fast-driving car is an immediate potential threat, and a highly-trained bodyguard should know that.

How would you tell the difference between a car with a 'friendly' journalist in and a car with a suicide squad in? Yes, a tragedy, but it was a senseless one. During 1940/41, several people in Britain were shot by the Home Guard (or regular army soldiers) at roadblocks because they refused to stop but kept driving. If you are dumb enough to act/look like a threat, be prepared to be treated like one.

 

BTW, if I understood it correctly, than the US soldiers knew there was a convoy with this women coming, not sure, but they should have known, and isn't possible that the S army didn't know anything about a hostage getting transported out of Irzq.

 

Regardless...
If you are dumb enough to act like a threat, then expect to be treated like one.

Never accept anything at face value in an area where people dressed as civilians are willing to blow themselves up just to hurt you.

 

I do not think we do have enough evidence to blame someone on this

Certainly the US soldiers did not intent to kill that journalist, but wether they were trigger happy or wether the italian car drove too fast, we just can't know.

 

''Drove to fast''

What would you do when in a car with alot of value (Journalist) with you and the change to get attacked and kidnapped again...? The one that forgot to report that they where coming has to be blamed.

When President Bush is driven to a meeting they also drive very fast.

 

I assume that given the security situation, all foreign cars do drive very fast through Bagdad, especially secret agents on a mission(as in this case).
But as I do not know the details about the incident I wouldn't blame anyone without knowing more.

 

That's irrelevant. He's not in a war zone.

 

Its about the same, there could be people that want to attack the car of the US President, like suicidebombers, they don't the change to walk up to the car because it drives fast, so its about the same.

 

However, the President drives in a very obvious car in the middle of a motorcade covered by very strict security and with a lot of Media attention. Everybody knows who & where he is. And he does not drive through an area known for suicide car-bombings, insurgencies, etc, where the occupying troops (the recipients of the said attacks) have a strict policy of stopping traffic at road blocks for their own safety.

I repeat, if you act like a threat, you must be prepared to be treated like one.

 

And that is a very valid point, Ricky, in any war zone. Incidents like this have happened in any war. Just as a case in point, General Anthony Wayne of George Washington's Continental Army was shot by an American sentry when he didn't halt or give the right password. Unlike our Italian Communist journalist, however, General Wayne didn't claim there was a conspiracy to assassinate him.

[Split here by Moderator - moved to 'Governments']

And Roel, in my experience, Communists tend to lie like most people breathe, especially when it comes to the United States. You may disagree with me about that, but please bear in mind that I'm a good deal older than you are, and I read, saw, and heard their lies more times than I cared to before the Soviet Union bit the big one. With Communists, it has always seemed to me that propaganda, no matter how outlandish, is their number one participant sport. 8)

 

best army overall-usa
best man for man-britan
best special forces-britan (sas and sbs)or russa (spetnaz)
best tanks-russia (t-90)
most dedicated-isreal
best planes-europe(eurofighters)

 

i heard from a source that the spetnaz arent what they are cracked up 2 be