Turkey shoots down Russian jet

No, they are both bad - Russia is just worse.

No, it was only logical.

Russia had been asking for it for a while already. When one pushes the limits long and far enough, the response will come - and it did!

What Russia can do now is very little - except whining of course...

Quite many thinks exactly the opposite.

Putin has showed us time after time, that one should not listen what he says, but what he does. So far he has done war and aggression. Naturally the rest of the World must respond.

Perhaps it would be more correct to say, that Russian pilots are either very incompetent and/or do not care the least about the civilians?

The country is anyway in ruins and countless of people have lost their lives - thanks first to the Assad's dictatorship and then Russia .

 

Bob, Diplomacy and Paki news in the same sentence. You have got to be kidding, although the premises are thought provoking and I won't discard them, I am not getting that same sense from the Kurds I know for over a year but I will dig deeper. Rather read it from Myanmar, not really but the symbolism is similar.

Since you have first hand knowledge I am not disagreeing with your experience, and thanks - for that.But as Armenian Genocide, Dersim Massacre and other unsavory historical events attest - Turks are a foul bunch, at best. Sorry if I touched a nerve. Just a glimpse into Turkeys Grey Wolf organization is enough for me to say they deserve anything Russia metes out.

 

Here's an interesting article everyone should read if they are interested in what is really going on.

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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-25/meet-man-who-funds-isis-bilal-erdogan-son-turkeys-president

 

Shooting down a plane involved in a so called "police action" is escalation (and if outside the national borders an act of war). The words that followed the missiles from the Turkish side are not very conciliatory either. Putin may feel he has to hit back or look weak and that is possibly the one the one thing he can't afford.

The exact dynamics of the incident or position of the plane are still not very clear. If the pilot ended up landing outside Turkey it can't have been much inside it when hit and at the speed those things fly that doesn't match with a multi seconds warning. One strange thing is that contrary to similar episodes transcripts of intercepts of radio communications have not surfaced yet, the ones between the planes and their bases are likely heavily encrypted but if the Turks tried to talk to the Russians they must have transmitted in clear.

The PKK is not likely to go away, while it may not represent the majority of the Kurds that's pretty meaningless, armed insurgents are never the majority, that doesn't mean than when guns speak they are not the only voice you can hear. I don't see "arming the Kurds but not the PKK" as feasible, the demarcation line is far for clear and the PKK has years of experience surviving against a foe (actually foes as Saddam was no PKK lover) a lot more ruthless than a coalition suffering from mixed agenda will ever be.

What is amazing is the number of players, each with it's own agenda, involved (ISIS, the other "insurgents", the Kurds, PKK, Assad, Russia, Turkey, France, Iran, Israel, the Saudis, the USA, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some) and each is either armed to the teeth or ruthless enough to make an SS blanch if not both. I can't really recall anything similar, not even the Balkans managed to produce such a mess.

And we are wondering the locals are attempting to escape to Europe ?

 

Aye, aye sir. Understand and will obey. I have been frustrated of late with broken links and sites that let you start reading then demand you subscribe to finish so I just copied and pasted the entire article lest I frustrate others. I will gladly comply with your directives in the future.

 

Don't know how much faith I put in the article or its conclusions.

First the author is listed as Tyler Durden, Brad Pitt's character from "Fight Club" and the accompanying picture is of Pitt also.

-One of the facts that they cite for Turkish comlicity is (from KB's article) "ISIS militants were trained by US, Israeli and now it emerges, by Turkish special forces at secret bases in Konya Province inside the Turkish border to Syria, over the past three years." OK so lets analyze the staement. The Turkish Special Forces were training ISIS alongside US and Israeli personnel? Does that mean that the US and Israel are secretly supporting ISIS also? A more logical explaination is that anti-Assad rebels were being trained in a safe area/base within Konya Province Turkey, by a coalition of like minded governmental entities for employment against Assad, in all probability at the request of the US government. This also fits in nicely with the timeline, "over the past three years", for when the Obama administration, using Kerry as point man started pushing for the arming and training of Syrian rebels. The initial operation was covert and initially used the CIA, later military trainers became involved. It was only later realized when militant Islamic rebels turned on moderate Syrian rebels and fighting insued that the US government had miscalculated in using this method. Why would Turkey be held more culpable than, Israel or the US in this affair? They were cooperating with what we asked.

Also from the article posted by KB, and taken out of context by the author, singles out Turkey when his actual remarks included Turkey, the UAE, and other US allies in the ME.

From CNN;http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/05/politics/isis-biden-erdogan-apology/
"They poured hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of tons of weapons into anyone who would fight against Assad. Except that the people who were being supplied were al-Nusra and al-Qaeda and the extremist elements of jihadis coming from other parts of the world," Biden told students."

Biden's apologies were NOT in order to get Turkish cooperation for the use of Incirlik, though it did raise tensions at a sensitive time, he also apologized to the UAE Crown Prince, and Saudi Arabia, (they were accused also, not just Turkey) because as is often his habit, Biden suffers from foot in mouth disease. Now why would Turkey be so keen to topple Assad? Well in the Turks long war with the PKK, they largely ran the organization out of southeastern Turkey into northern Iraq and Syria. So the border regions of Syria were a safe haven for the PKK and allowed it to make cross border attacks on Turkey. The PKK leader, Abdullah Öcalan was based out of Syria for many years until Turkish threats to Syria about its support of the PKK forced them to expell him. It is an interesting side note that the very thing he accuses Turkey, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and others of doing is exactly what we, the US administration that Biden is a part of, ended up doing. Assad has concentrated his efforts against al-Nusra which he sees as a bigger threat to his regime than ISIS. al-Queda and ISIS are actually at war with one another, al-Queda actually accusing ISIS of being too extreme! This is the one plus side of the whole affair al-Queda killing ISIS and ISIS killing al-Queda.

What really led to turkish cooperation with the Incirlik Airbase? From Huffington post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/turkey-coalition-airstrikes-isis_55e1b2a2e4b0b7a963393423

Again, Turkey's airstrikes against the PKK have been routinely mischaracterized as against Kurds in general when they are specifically targeting the PKK. If you wonder why Turkey is fixated on the PKK just Google, PKK attacks on Turkey. The US or any other western nation would be doing the same if they had been hit so many times by a terrorist organization.

Here's an excerpt from a letter by Human Rights watch to Italy requesting they deny Ocalon asylum:

"Consequently, all economic, political, military, social and cultural organizations, institutions, formations -- and those who serve in them -- have become targets. The entire country has become a battlefield.
The PKK also promised to "liquidate" or "eliminate" political parties, "imperialist" cultural and educational institutions, legislative and representative bodies, and "all local collaborators and agents working for the Republic of Turkey in Kurdistan."

So they're just wanting Kurdish autonomy, doesn't appear so from their own words.

https://www.hrw.org/news/1998/11/20/letter-italian-prime-minister-massimo-dalema

The PKK are very bad guys and leave no doubt as to their intentions.

Then they go on to quote a French "Conspiracy Theorist", Thierry Meyssan as another source, that's like us using Alex Jones as a source. Not reliable. Meyssan is a vocal advocate of, the 9/11 Attacks were a false flag operation genre and published a book, "9/11: The Big Lie" back in 2002.

It is possible what they're putting forth is true, but unlikely, and I'd need more and better sources before I bought into their theory.

 

The article doesn't say that. You said that. The US of course did train "moderate Muslims" who then immediately defected to ISIS. You can thank John McCain for most of that.

The rest is verified by 100 sources. ISIS operates with money earned by moving both oil and refined fuel out of the region. In Turkish tankers. Owned by Erdogan's son. That's indisputable. O'Bummer has refused to hit those oil sources or the convoys for humanitarian reasons - he doesn't want to kill civilian workers, he says. Or, maybe he prefers to maintain the fiction that Turkey is still an ally.

The Russians have no such illusions and are hitting them hard, and now the Turks are shooting at the Russians.

The entire thing is ridiculous. ISIS has declared war on everyone. The Kurds are fighting ISIS. The Turks are fighting the Kurds. And now the Russians are involved backing Assad directly.

 

The oil trade was thrusted into the public eye by Putin who exposed the illegal enterprise at the G20 summit along with numerous individuals within the G20 countries. The bombing of the oil tankers and infrastructure by Russia began while the summit was still in session.

Erdogan'a son was one of the individuals mentioned (he is actually in charge of the operation) Considering that Erdogan was hosting the summit, I can't even begin to imagine the kind of embarrassment and perhaps anger that followed upon the Revelation. There are some who believe that Turkey shot down the Russian bomber as payback...

The question everyone is beginning to ask is why has the United States not done anything regarding this enterprise considering the amount of weaponry and satellites she has in the region and over head,

 

This G20 summit took place in 2014? Because it was at least that early when CBS, and several other news media began reporting on the issue.


Why did the US ignore the enterprise...There are many reasons. Turkey, for better or worse is a US ally, and one does not go about airing your friend's dirty laundry and expect to still call them "friend". Another reason is that it is not just Turkey, but also the Kurds, another US Ally, that has a hand in this, and they are turning a good coin doing so. Then, you have Assad's forces profiting from this venture too. So, if the US was to take an active involvement, it would mean calling out two US allies, and taking a much harder line with Assad. The current administration has already generated a lot of ill-will with our allies, without piling on more. Also, it has never taken a very hard line in Syria, preferring to remain at arms length from actual combat and rely on drones and bombing strikes and avoid putting boots on the ground and actually doing something to end the fighting.

 

Hoping i haven't missed anything regarding in the above...
If the Russians can see the oil crossing into Turkey from satelite, surely the US could as well.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.html
Our "allies" yonder don't seem to like us very much. ..Very confusing.
Doesn't help when media continuously makes mistakes in reporting...CNN called the SU 24: Frogfoot, and showed its operational radius.

 

It's a two-way street. Take Paris for example...A terrorist attack takes place in the French capital and the West falls all over themselves offering sympathy. Yet, roughly a month earlier, terrorist bomb blasts(attributed variously to ISIS or PKK, AFAIK no one has yet claimed responsibility) in the Turkish capital of Ankara killed and wounded roughly the same number of people. Yet, from the West there was hardly a murmur.

 

Agreed, ridiculous. As Beijing watches, licking their chops and maneuvering throughout WESTPAC, my old stomping ground.

True and sad indeed.

 

Not being in America i would like to know what the forum thinks of Obama's response to all this...what is his attitude? Do you think he has things in hand? Is America worried/concerned?

 

Barrack Obama = Weak

 

The G20 summit I was referring to took place in Turkey on Nov.15th-16th 2015.

Some are actually claiming just that. The attack On the bomber was in response to Putin unavailing turkeys dirty laundry. More and more are starting to claim that since Russia gave all parties involved there flight paths (for various reasons) it wouldn't be very difficult to set an ambush. The final straw according is the time. Lavrov stated that for an aviator to phone in the highest levels of govt. explain the situation, get the approval and get off a shot in a matter of 17 seconds is quite an impressive feat. What's also confusing is that there are now 5 official stories as to what happened.

1. It was an unknown aircraft
2. Then it became Russian
3. Erdogan personally authorized the hit
4. Later it was prime minister
5. Erdogan also claimed it was in response to the bombings of the Turkmens (ethnic Turks)

Anybody's guess as to which one they will stick with.

Turkey is the sole recipient of ISIS oil buying it at 15-20 a barrel later reselling it to numerous players.

Below is Russia's official flight data Info
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151124/1030695406/mod-su-24-flight-path.html

Turkey releases warnings

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34929242

I'm no expert and I immediately see two major problems with these recordings.
1. No date - was it recorded 2 days ago or 2 months ago?
2. Where's the proof that it was for the ill-fated SU24?

In 2012 a Turkish F4 was shot down over Syria after it breached Syrias airspace.

Erdogan had the following to say: "a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack".

Hypocrisy much?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-accuses-turkey-of-hypocrisy-after-erdogan-himself-says-airspace-violation-does-not-justify-a6748146.html



Cheers

 

The current administration doesn't have a coherent strategy for dealing with the problem. They tend to change the narrative and their actions to fit their view of the situation, instead of viewing the situation from a realistic perspective and crafting a strategy to deal with the situation as it actually exists and planning for probable outcomes.
The current scandal over the alteration of intelligence reports by Centcom, for political reasons, in order to please administration officials and to fit in with their views is just the latest symptom.

Centcom scandal:

http://nypost.com/2015/11/23/behind-the-cooked-intelligence-scandal-what-the-higher-ups-want-to-hear/

Back in 2013 Obama fired General James Mattis as the Commander of Centcom, because he wouldn't buy into many of the policies put forth by the Presidents inner circle of civilian Foreign Policy Advisors, and continued to ask hard questions. They didn't have answers when he asked, OK what are you going to do when you do that and this occurs?

From an article on Mattis' firing:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/01/18/the-obama-administrations-inexplicable-mishandling-of-marine-gen-james-mattis-2/

 

Look at a map. ISIS is surrounded by enemies, yet they are exporting raw oil and fuel (from refineries they hold) and until this Russian blitz, were earning an estimated one million dollars a day from that trade. That's not much, but that along with taxing and robbing citizens under their control and donations from sources the west has failed to take action against (Muslim charities and rich donors across the middle east) has been enough to keep them in beans and bullets. Much of that petroleum is going through directly to Turkish tankers owned by Erdogan's son who is then selling it in the far east, mostly to Japan. Erdogan admits this and defends it. Much of the refined fuel is going directly to Turkey for their own use.

ISIS holds a corridor abutting the Turkish border and there is no other route out for oil or in for recruits and weapons. Turkish air attacks have mainly been inflicted on Kurdish forces trying to close that corridor.

The Kurds are not a united group. There are three main groups. PKK is a Marxist group of Turkish Kurds who might well be characterized as terrorists since they have attacked civilians in retaliation for Turkish army and police attacks against Kurdish civilians. YPG is made up of Syrian Kurds and the Peshmerga are Iraqi Kurds. Both of the latter have publicly denounced PKK actions and political extremism. Both of the latter are calling for and practicing now, a capitalist system based loosely on the Swiss Canton system - semi-autonomous regions under an elected central government.

The Turks have attacked both YPG and Peshmerga forces in Syria, neither of which have anything to do with Turkey. The Peshmerga are US allies, supplied by the US through the Iraqi government. Why our government ignores this, and ignores the Turkish oil and weapons trade with ISIS is beyond my understanding.

 

To amplify what USMCPrice has posted is the point of view within the Administration not to commit the next president (who they hope is a Democrat) to any specific course of action. Hence doing more of the same seems a safe course to their point of view. The problem of course is the next president will not take office for another 14 months (plus however long to organize their cabinet).

So don't expect any real change in American policy for the foreseeable future.