Turkey shoots down Russian jet

this is usually the case with most incidents.....most are ''dynamic''....many forces, etc involved....then everyone has their own mindset and tries to prove their point by turning and twisting the facts....
this jet flying mucho fast,..will get off track fast.... ground radar operators first have to confirm what they are seeing, go to higher ups, then they have to go to their higher ups....etc etc...

 

Neither side is going to admit any fault on their part. The truth of the matter will likely never be known.

 

The fault for this incident is firmly in the hands of the West. For some time there has been a total lack of response to Putin's bullyboy actions.

Murder on the streets of London, invasion, incursions in to airspace and coastal waters, shooting down of Malaysian aircraft and what does the West do - nothing, so this becomes the norm.

Now when a country stands up to him (and breaks that apparent unspoken rule, don't upset Putin) he throws his dummy out of his pram and stamps his feet. No doubt NATO will be round with a bottle of grip water and to change his nappy for him.

And to those who take the view we need Russia working with NATO to defeat IS - Russia has its own agenda. As for working together, read Putin having his tanks parked in your front garden.

NATO needs to send Putin a loud warning - no more - any further incursions will result in the same action. Show some bottle.

Brian

 

Wrong: that Putin has his own agenda is not relevant : the West has also its own agenda .

Not Putin is the danger, but ISIS . ISIS is a danger for us and for Putin .

The Cold War is over and will not return .

 

Putin not a danger???

How would you explain such a comment to Ukraine and Crimea, the relatives of Litvenko and passengers on the Malaysian passenger aircraft. (I could go on but rhetoric is infectious).

Check the times British airspace is violated and the times submarines are spotted off our waters.

IS does need to be wiped from the face of the earth and Britain needs to do its bit - NATO needs to be much quicker in responding and far more aggressive. Putin is a threat and needs to be put firmly back in his box by a strong and proactive West.

Brian

 

Ukraine is not a member of NATO .Thus not our business. Putin did not shoot the Malaysian aircraft . Proofs for the claim that British airspace was violated and that this was a danger for Britain ?
About ISIS : NATO can not intervene in the ME and Britain has no longer the power to operate outside its airspace .

 

What are you talking about here. Just because Ukraine is not a member of NATO is completely irrelevant, or is it OK for such action to take place outside NATO countries. Just because it is Ukraine now does not mean it will not be somewhere else next time. You appear prepared to wait - I prefer not to take the chance.

It really is fortunate your mindset was not prevalent when Germany marched in to Poland or German troops would have been sunbathing on French and Spanish beaches before the Allies decided if it was appropriate to arrange a meeting to discuss possible sanctions.

If you kept up to date with current news you would be aware of the reports of airspace and coastal water violations. You would also be aware of the links between the shooting down of passenger airliner and Russia. I suppose Litvenko is still alive and well.

If you think this is a ME issue you are again wrong, it is about personal security which makes it our problem.

Already wasted too much time with you - off to do something useful.

Brian

 

MI6 has excluded involvement of Putin in the death of Litvinenko,besides I don't care about Litvinenko : he was a colonel of the Cheka and nobody would sorrow about his death : or maybe you think that if before the war a Gestapo colonel was deserting to the west and died mysteriously, people would sorrow ?

If Europe (Britain included) wants to survive, it needs the help of Russia ;one can no longer count on the help of the US .

 

http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-says-islamic-state-oil-going-turkey-190128470.html

Putin says Turkey defending ISIS oil......sorry if this was put up before....

 

Turkey needs some tough love.

 

Just been reading a list of Turkish overflights of Greek airspace in the Aegean, The 'mock dogfights' and one accidental death (Turkish F16 & Greek F16 collision) that have occurred there recently.
Quite a lot of territorial overflight in a Cold War sort of dispute. Not a lot of deliberately shooting down planes.

It really is very interesting as to why the order was issued to shoot this Su. down.
The official reasons given just doesn't quite convince. Me, or, more interestingly; many other more grown-up and specialised observers of the region.


In other news: Russian air support for the Kurds fighting the black flaggers seems to be intensifying, and becoming more direct.
That's interesting too.
The Turks weren't exactly pleased when such support began (Beginning of October? Earlier?). Anyone might think that's now quite the potential flashpoint if a local country other than the black flags decides to shoot at Kurdish forces.
I find the whole Kurdish thing really very... interesting.
The air support in particular, from Russia and other nations - perhaps implies more cooperation between the fliers and their Commands/Governments going on than the mainstream narrative of dispute between nations? Maybe some Realpolitik going on there.

 

Don't buy what Putin's selling. There is more evidence to support Turkey's story than Putin's. For instance, NATO's Secretary General had protested repeated violations of Turkey's airspace by Russians back in early October, and what US intelligence sources identified as Russian drone had been shot down over Turkey a little over a week later. Russia didn't deny the violations and even apologized. Turkey had been complaining about Russian airstrikes against moderate anti-Assad opposition forces. Evidence from sources on the ground supported that more strikes were hitting moderate anti-Assad militias than ISIS forces. Turkey and the Assad regime are long time enemys. Russia intervened more to prop up the Assad regime than to fight ISIS.

From October 5th Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-russia-idUSKCN0RZ0FT20151006

From 08 October article in The Independant:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-in-syria-us-and-turkey-claim-russian-warplanes-hitting-moderate-syrian-rebel-groups-a6685496.html

On November 20th Turkey complained that Russians were targeting Turkmen civilians in border areas and threatened retaliation if they didn't stop.

They didn't and Turkey did exactly what they said they'd do. It wasn't some last minute spur of the moment decision, it had been brewing for almost two months.

 

The UK press is on the Russian's side here. All attempts to make them out as 'villians' are futile and to be honest the public don't really care which rebels they bomb as they are all seen as 'terrorists'. Far from making the Russians cautious the opposite seems to have happened. Turkey has had a very bad press on the plane downing. Watching the news here I see more than one person has noted it is the waning US influence that is the problem and it is likely any sabotage of the Russian effort would be privately encouraged by the US trying to wrest back some control. Even the right-wing papers are mocking Cameron for his attempt to jump on the Russian bandwagon and slip a few aircraft over and grab some of the credit.
It is also significant that serious attempts to stop the oil flow through Turkey only came after Russia made it more public.

Assad has survived the Western efforts to remove him and as long as he has Putin's backing he is not going anywhere.

 

Too much respect for USMCP to disagree with anything he might write.
But, would rather side with an enemy i know rather than one i don't. Turkey has too much religion, and am very suspicious of the possibility Turkey is buying (funding isis) oil and profiting off the situation.
Will keep in mind whatever MrP says.

 

Who's cares what MI6 said. Rogues here know more.

 

This is hogwash! This implies that certain rogues here would have to face facts and common sense. An impossibility for certain individuals here who constantly view Russia through a Cold War lense.

 

Yes Russia apologized for the initial intrusion and Turkey simply waived it off as no big deal. As for the drone, it was not Russian nor was it ever confirmed to be Russian. Russia's only drone manufacturer laughed it off. No Russian drones resemble what was downed over Turkey. What's bizarre concerning that drone is was that it was tiny yet said to have been hit by a missile and the only damage was a broken wing? I may be mistaken but it would seem if a missile would hit a drone (any drone) there wouldn't be much left of it.


https://www.google.com/search?q=drone+downed+iver+turkey&client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&tbm=isch&prmd=nvi&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji3Oj24LnJAhUBfiYKHSatCsEQ_AUIBygD#imgrc=G45Nsz3FTzklwM%3A

 

As a comment to the last...some AA is proximity fused...blows near the target rather than tries to hit it...that blast can have a shaped charge to blow in a certain direction or it could be a simple all round blast...either way, the door is open for a "small" hit...i do have to agree with you though, most drones (except for the largest - almost full jet size) wouldnt fair well...

 

Whatever comes of this in the long run, Erdogan's made his statement, hasn't he.
The rest of NATO appear to be dedicated to a smoothing over of the specific event, rather than any rush to support, or even condemn, either side too strongly.
Wonder what that statement will cost Turkey eventually. Looking at Russian tourism, trade etc. to the country it's a not insignificant flow of business (the Beeb citing Russia as Turkey's second largest trading partner etc.) that's now under some threat.
Russia is under economic stress herself of late, but whether stressed enough to forgive this fully in economic & trading terms seems passing unlikely. The current sanctions she's declared against Turkey are defined as 'temporary', but it is quite possible they will stand, or become more severe. A great many deals and treaties now coming under scrutiny.

It's again... Interesting... that this page is still up on the Turkish Government pages.
Several years old, and I know that some oil trading etc. has slipped since then, but at least an indicator of the possible wider effects of this incident, now it looks like it hasn't quite triggered WW3.:
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/turkey_s-commercial-and-economic-relations-with-russian-federation.en.mfa
(I suspect that last 'billion' is a misprunt. Million chimes better with other figures. maybe total visits rather than individuals too, though it seems unlikely the entire Russian population visited c.7 times )

 

Point taken. Keep in mind however; the drone in question was struck by an air to air missile from a Turkish F16... Considering the size of the drone in question and the speed of the f16 I'm surprised they even saw it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/16/turkey-shoots-down-drone-near-syrian-border