Utterly beyond belief the French SS volunteers..madness!

Could be - wouldn’t be the first mistake I’ve made. But then why, when all nations in Europe, Scandinavia, and other countries had members in the German military during WWII; would sdkfz only be surprised that French were in the SS?

 

The French left and right have been bitter enemies for 150 years and many felt the left were greater enemies to France then the Germans. Many collaberators did so because at the start because they wanted to be on winning side, since it was felt Britain would shortly surrender. William Shrirer wrote " the collapse of the third republic" which discusses in depth the hatred felt.

 

A real kicker, the French rounded up German SS troops and sent them to fight in Indochina after the war.

 

Actually they volunteered. Some of them were Ukrainian who turned against their German "masters" in 1944 and were given a second chance by joining the Foreign Legion and fight in Indochina rahter than being sent back to Staline. some of them even fought in Algeria up to 1962, talking about veterans.

 

I know all about the activities of the European nations who willingly joined the SS,their list of crimes is beyond human understanding..(Thankfully for the sake of history Italy and Holland in particular didn't shame themselves when the call came to round up the Jews..unlike too many others who were only too able and willing)..The behavior of these countries is a stain on European history for evermore..It appears to me that the further East you traveled the worse the involvement until you enter Eastern Europe and it becomes horrendous.
France seemed to me to have more than a few reasons to not tolerate the Nazis marching up and down every morning by the Eiffel Tower deliberately insulting French pride..It's one thing to be forced into serving an occupying force,but willingly doing it while your home country is crushed under the hobnailed jackboot defies understanding. Vichy France is a disgusting example of outright collaboration.Petain's excuses are an insult to the intelligence if you look at the way he benefited under Nazi rule and his cronies did..(The argument he was just an old man who was manipulated by Hitler is taking credulity to it's limits in my book). The worst part is the way those French fighting for liberty were rounded up by their own people on behalf of their German masters and done away with mercilessly and innocent civilians were sent to their deaths with the perpetrators knowing only too well what it was all about..Those French civilians responsible leave France with a sad history to bear. Then if all this wasn't bad enough Free Frenchmen answer the call to join the SS..mostly for selfish reasons. Of all the people to end up protecting Hitler's chancellery it had to be the French..Words fail the sane of mind.

 

A few things sdkfz51: for a fairer analysis, if you mention those who collaborated, you should also mention those who did not. Over 80.000 French Resistants were deported by the Nazis . Out of these 80.000 , 50.000 did not return.
It is generally admitted that some 200.000 people actively collaborated (this includes the few thousands of the LVF and Milice as well as civil servants , politicians , idustrials and others) . This figure is opposed to 200.000 who fought in the Resistance (this does not include the fake so called "last hour" ones ). It does not mention the hundeds of thousand who fought throughout the world for Free France for our freedom . For instance in the RAF fighter Command and Bomber Command .

Collaboration en France - Wikipédia

Holland has a high rate of deported jews in Europe (80%) . It's population may not have taken part in this deportation, but considering over 100.000 joined the NSB and the numbers of internees after the war the ratio of collaborators is in fact much higher compared to the population.

As to to the Italians, they were Hitler's ally as a nation and the fascists killed many of their own people and allied soldiers before welcoming them as liberators.. They additionnally stabbed France in the back in 1940.

Both countires also had a high ratio of volunteers who fought the Nazis and this balances earlier mentionned figures.

I have a high respect for both the Dutch and the Italians and I could have picked other nations too , but the point I wanted to make is that NO nation is stainless regarding collaboration.

France has offically done a Mea Culpa in 2005, so has Germany and other countries. I wish we could add Japan , the Czech republic ( ethnic clensing in 1945) and others to this list .

 

Thank you for the reply Skipper,
It is just sobering to my mind ANYONE would collaborate willingly with the Nazis and their insane ideals that was all. I do know there were a lot of French who were in the resistance,I have the highest respect for them..anyone who stands against tyranny knowing only too well they face death are to be held in great reverence and those who fought against the Nazi menace in allied forces..I have no doubt there were numerous examples of this across Europe..even in the Eastern Regions where the destruction and genocide were beyond belief.
I just find the fact that even 200.000 estimated collaborators is a disgrace in ANY country!What drives such stupidity? That is what I don't get..
I know antisemitism was not confined to Nazi ideology for instance..it sadly had it's tentacles firmly entrenched across Europe in all the wrong places ..France was no exception..No doubt the pages of such rubbish as the Protocols were avidly digested by the weak minded and prejudiced..sadly this helped cause part of the collaboration to remove Jews from France with tragic consequences...as in many other countries across Europe..persecution was and still is an international disgrace.
Let's not forget it was French police who emptied out the Drancy concentration camp of young Jewish children and infants..whether the authorities knew or not they were heading for Birkenau and certain death we may never know,but the way it was done left noone in any doubt these children were in a dreadful state ,were suffering and needed desperate help. Criminal behavior of the worst kind. That's where collaboration gets you to..allowing the criminal and stupid to do someone else's dirty work.
I'm quite sure..in fact I have read about the brave actions of the resistance in France in particular..that many French citizens hated the Nazi jackboots,indeed if it were not for those brave souls the D-Day landings may have been a lot more difficult..I read that many of the French were a constant thorn in the side of the Nazi thugs and caused no end of chaos every chance they got..killing quite a few of them along the way.
What I'm saying is far too many went along with it..and by doing so condemned their own countrymen. Being forced at the point of a gun is one thing,but because of self interest,warped ideology etc is totally mind numbing and not a good enough excuse to sell your own country out...especially when too many defend this reprehensible behavior any way they can and the apologists carp on making feeble excuses to justify it even now they haven't learned the reality.
I see this ridiculous behavior on a smaller scale today with the nationalists marching about in Nazi uniforms and quoting tracts from Mein Kampf telling any idiots who will listen they are patriotic to their own country! Veterans look on horrified.The deniers line up with their dribbling evidence to let the guilty of history off the hook..well it's not working on the likes of me..too many of these idiots probably sleep with a copy of Mein Kampf under their pillows and site The Protocols as evidence of the mind numbingly ridiculous belief in the world wide Jewish conspiracy..this madness knows no bounds it seems. These old fools denying any part in any of it or saying they had no idea who they were really working for..they didn't pull the trigger it was following orders or it was someone else.
It is sad we had to sink the French fleet and kill numerous Frenchmen to stop the fleet falling into use by the Nazis..Fighting our own allies in French North Africa was unbelievable!
It is fitting to my mind many faced the noose and bullet and many more should have as well..
The reason France figures so strongly in my posts is because of all the allied countries to the UK France was closest..before the US was involved.
It is sad to recall one other rather offensive event that took place after the war by someone who should have known a lot better and didn't..I guess nationalist pride and arrogance got the better of them. According to what I read General De Gaul told an aide to Eisenhower he wanted all allied troops out of France in no uncertain terms as soon as possible..the aide relayed this message to Eisenhower to which Eisenhower replied.."Ask him if that includes all the war dead" when this message was relayed to De Gaul he walked off without answering.
Nationalist pride,arrogance,prejudice,criminality and stupidity add to that self interest..a heady mix too much for some to ignore regardless of the consequences of their lunatic behavior and the trail of misery and death they leave behind them.

 

Well hind-sight is 20-20. I guess we all would be geniuses if we could view our actions today from 60 or 70 years in the future.

I'm sure there are a lot of Germans would of changed their opinion of the Nazis if given this hind-sight that is available to us.

Also in defense of those who did support the Nazis in the 30's it must be noted that the communists in Russia were killing a lot more of their people at that time than the Nazis were.

KTK

 

I guess the same argument could be made with anybody who collaborated or helped what turned out to be the losing side. They didn't know they would lose. Also, many of the French and British thought the Russians were scarier than the Nazis... Bolshevism wasn't all that popular. And I agree with the person who mentioned nationalism, many people in Europe were looking for some kind of revival of thier national ideas (i.e. Slovakia and France) but didn't want to cooperate with the government to revise that vision.

 

Please don't get the idea I have no idea of the other atrocious records of many other nations..As you point out Russia was a disgrace up there with Hitler and his thugs..It is all very disgusting whatever way you paint it or try to justify it..and really it doesn't matter where these outrages were carried out.
I could be in sticky mud saying this,but my shock at France is due to the feeling a lot of the Eastern territories were a lot easier to invade and find collaborators amongst the populations who had no scruples at hacking people to death in a public square with a cheering crowd baying for blood..case in point I would sight the atrocities carried out in Lithuania,Latvia,the Ukraine to name a few..we all know only too well the depths of their involvement with the murders carried out by the Nazis. France to me seemed to civilized and above any form of collaboration and collusion with the Nazis..that was all..It's very disturbing it could happen in Western Europe.

 

sorry this is a myth: the Dutch and Italian police helped too. It is something that is not often mentionned but things happened... Here is just a local Dutch example.

Gouda : Op vrijdag 9 april 1943 wordt het tehuis ontruimd door de SS met behulp van Haagse en Goudse politieagenten. De bewoners worden in vrachtwagens naar het station gereden. De bestemming is Westerbork.

Which means "on Friday April 9th 1943, the building was emptied by the SS with the help of Police from The Hague and Gouda. The inhabitants were driven to the station, their destination is Westerbork."

The Source is from a Dutch Resistance Museum and is reliable

Gouda in de Tweede Wereldoorlog - Tweede Wereldoorlog - Thema's - Verzetsmuseum Zuid-Holland

 

I remember reading about the Rome massacre in which the Nazis and thier Italian sympathizers massacred civilians in some caves as reprisal for a 1944 partisan attack as well. The Italians were somewhat hesitant to give up all of thier Jews, but let's not forget that Primo Levi was an Italian Chemist who, along with many other Italian Jews, was imprisoned at Auschwitz-Monowitz.

 

Thank you for the informative replies,this kind of disgusting behavior seems to have been prevalent everywhere sadly..I was vaguely aware of the Italian massacre..the massacre I read about was carried out by the SS and Italians in a fortress somewhere towards the end of the war..horrendous murders from what I read and really with no sense to them..sickening. As for the Dutch I was also aware of the SS and idiots in the Dutch police sticking hobnail boots through doors in the early hours on many occasion..Anne Frank and her family being the most famous deportees. No-one is without blame for the atrocious behavior across the continents. There was even rumors well founded I believe of Jewish members of the SS..now that is taking things to extremes,but from what I have researched anything was possible sadly,after all there were quite a few Jewish overseers in the camps and ghettos who needed no incentive to murder their own people,take advantage of them and benefit from their murders..sadly it isn't beyond belief. How utterly depressing that people would and will stoop that low..and mostly for what was (and is) in it for them at the expense of others. Selling your own people out under threat of death is one thing,but willingly doing it is below disgusting....treachery isn't even a good enough way to describe such behavior. And yes I'm well aware of the English SS formation..idiotic.
I must explain I do not read pulp fictitious rubbish that makes a sensationalist statement about all these crimes through history and I don't subscribe to the idiotic views of the likes of Irving..although some would argue even with his biased views he has a place in historical writing..His book the Mare's Nest is an excellent overview of the V weapon's program if you forget who wrote the book and his idiotic statements concerning the Holocaust. Trevor Roper,Rupert Butler,Bob Curuthers etc..these are reputable historians who don't slant history to suit themselves..there are many more excellent historians. I have read Hitler's scribblings,Rosenberg's idiotic tracts,Goebbel's Diaries,the protocols,Hoess's sanctimonious drivvle etc ..I was determined to get them and read them..all the rabid anti-Semite literature I could lay hands on..I even got the script for The Eternal Jew and a copy of the Stroop Report..It's only when you read this idiocy and understand it fully you start to see it for what it is. What is worse to my mind is the thousands of willing helpers who made the whole thing possible..wherever that help was from..the mind boggles at the lunacy. Nearly 13 years of insanity..And there's STILL idiots who would do it again given the slightest chance.

 

Sdkfz251 just look around today: how many people wear something commemorating the Soviet hammer & sickle, or a T-shirt with Mao on it? Mao and Stalin actually come in ahead of Hitler on the 'biggest butchers of history' list. Far better for the world if all three had never been, but what happened has happened, and we need to remember in an effort not to go down that road again.

 

Oh yes good old Uncle Joe and Mao...They really are beyond the pale..I know about the Russian disgrace and that crackpot Mao..Interesting how when Mao asked Russia for nukes he was turned down..even Russia knew a problem on their doorstep would become even worse if they supplied such weapons to a maniac like Mao.
Even the revolting way the Russians tried to cover up the Massacre at Katyn Wood by blaming of all people the Nazis! I was especially grieved by the way the Russians refused to honor those Jews massacred at Babi Yar..even going so far as to fill the ravine in and plant trees on it. That is really disgusting..thankfully the population made so much fuss about it it now has at least memorials there to the slaughtered thousands. Russia was and is in no position to preach about the Nazi atrocities..it's true to say not all Russians feel the same way as the likes of Stalin and his loathsome cronies..the purges are repulsive. Mao really was a crackpot..his stupidity led to millions starving to death and his insidious wife. I don't point out Hitler and his henchmen as the only example of this hateful behavior..with Hitler it was the fact that the Holocaust was carried out with such ferocity and inhumanity aimed at one race in particular..I'm more than aware other innocent groups suffered as well. The almost industrial way it was executed is unique in history.
I agree with the biggest butcher's in history though. I wonder how many of these idiots glamorizing these tawdry individuals and ideals would be so keen if they were on the receiving end of Stalin's N.K.V.D (who to my mind were really the scum of the Earth up there with the Gestapo and SD).
The lessons of history don't seem to be learnt very well sadly...as for walking down the same roads again..well...as you say look around you.

 

Also of note is the part the French Communist Party played in the downfall of France. They, in a large part, supported Germany as, at the time of the French invasion, they were “allies” of Stalin.
And during the occupation French Police were notorious for their support of Nazi policies.
There were many of the resistance who were communist and took arms and equipment from the Allies, not for use against the Germans, but to use against the Post War French government.
And, as Skipper noted, many French became “resistance fighters” only after it was clear that the Allies would be victorious.
The Free French made large contributions to the Allied victory which could have been greater if the Vichy not resisted in Syria and N. Africa; or the French fleet come over to the allies instead of being attacked by the Brits. Also De Gaul caused many problems which detracted from the Free French.

 

Thank you for those thoughts to add to mine on this dreadful episode in history..I was aware of the French police collaborating with the Nazis without any prompting in most cases..I wasn't so aware of the the Communist part of the resistance accepting arms from the Allies to use against the French government after the war though..that really is the limit isn't it. France allied to Stalin..great..I remember reading France had no government the day the war was declared in Europe..the Communists wanted to seize power.What is this grim stupid fascination with communism? The totalitarian dream..who wants to be crushed under a jackboot willingly? DeGaul leaves a somewhat unpleasant taste in the mouth sadly..not one of histories more memorable figures...Mind you he pales in comparison to Petain and the Vichy disgrace.

 

One additional point: The internal political struggle within France between rightists, many of whom borderline fascists, and socialists, some taking orders directly from Moscow, was extremely bitter. Street violence was not as uncommon as our modern perception of idyllic France would suggest. A lot of European countries in the interwar period were highly fractured and politically unstable; more over, I am given to the understanding that street brawling between activists were all to common, with Weimar Germany being particularly bad.

 

unpleasant taste to whom? To those who wanted to turn him into a puppet and did not appreciate he had a personality and was more popular than expected? Or was it because decisions were made in his back?

 

More than just borderline facists, there were riots in february 1934 which fired the government on the 4th and 16 dead (+2300 wounded! ) on the 6th and the counter demonstration had another 9 dead. It almost ended in a coup d'Etat and the governement was this close from falling into fascists hands

1934 in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia