Utterly beyond belief the French SS volunteers..madness!

To be fair--I am not trying to cast aspersion on the reputation of a great soldier and statesman, and I say it in all sincerity--De Gualle was considered hot potato by FDR, Churchill and Ike, but particularly Ike. De Gualle wanted Free French forces to participate the effort to liberate France to the greatest extend possible, even if some of those units were arguably not ready for all out conventional war, for reasons of prestige. He believed that whatever military setbacks this participation might impose was more than compensated by the the (in his opinion) politically necessary restoration of national pride. Eisehonwer preferred to fight in the way that was most military expedient, free of political considerations.

The move to liberate Paris was largely initiated by De Gaulle, and his Free French army exercised a great degree of autonomy that was not possible for other much bigger Allied forces. This was not doubt galling to the Supreme Commander.

 

Another scary Balkan group were the Croat Catholic Utasa; they ran the Jasenovac and Croat Concentration camps and fought for the Nazis. I find them even scarier than the Bosnian SS or the Chetniks.

A ton of countries had SS volunteers too:

View attachment 17451
Latvian SS Volunteer Ring
View attachment 17452
Ukrainian SS
View attachment 17453
Ukrainian SS
View attachment 17454
Lithuanian SS Volunteer Ring
View attachment 17455
Estonian SS

Keep in mind, it was Ukrainian SS Guards primarily at Sobibor and many of the death camps in Eastern Poland. The officers were of course German, those who ran the camps, but the men who stood watch were often from other countries.

This whole thread seems to bring up some very interesting points: Not everyone disliked the Nazis, and the Germans alone were not responsible for the tragedy of the SS and its atrocities. Many nations took part in the mass murder, and many people from all nations took sides both good and bad. No one country was innocent or guilty, entirely.

 

Nazi collaborators, including the French volunteers, delusively believed that Nazis fought the war to defend Europeans from the Bolshevik peril and to establish European Grossraumwirtschaft (Eng.: 'great space economy'). According to Göbbels, their real intentions were less noble:

'Nationalistic currents are increasingly observable in all former Baltic states. The populations there apparently imagined that the German Wehrmacht would shed its blood to set up new governments in these midget states. This is a childish, naive bit of imagination which makes no impression on us. National Socialism is much more cold-blooded and much more realistic in all these questions. It does only what is useful for its own people, and in this instance the interest of our people undoubtedly lies in the rigorous establishment of a German order within this area without paying any attention to the claims of the small nationalities living there.’ (From Goebbels' diary for March 16, 1942)

The real tragedy is that all collaborators were involved in crimes against humanity, for wrong cause.

 

Yup... and in the end even those who weren't part of the Hitlerites were considered "Nazis" ... ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers and such. Look at what us Americans did to Japanese who lived in the States, with the internment camps, racism that hasn't ceased to exist. The innocent get caught up with the guilty, all too often... my Great Uncle, may he rest in peace, was wounded in the Philippines during MacArthur's 1944 invasion... hit in the face by a bullet. Lived, but never referred to any Asian by their proper ethnicity 'till the day he died... always a dirty slur about the Japanese. It really is tragic, all of it is.

 

I can understand your Great Uncle's feelings. Unlike Germans who have fully understood how wrong Nazis were and are sincerely sorry, Japanese still refuse to admit crimes of their Imperial Army and still worship their Class-A war criminals. (The 14 Class-A War Criminals Enshrined at Yasukuni)

 

Excellent page, Tamino. Lots of historical info here.

It's so sad... in a doc about Iwo Jima I heard that the Japanese still don't teach children about the War in great detail. Probably because it brings back too many bad memories (after all, countless families lost so many sons and husbands, may they rest in peace).

 

I wish the Japanese could amend their mentalities and reach the point of autocriticism of the French . This is a French made film about the Veld'Hiv Round up. This wouldn't have been possible some years ago.

The Round Up - Trailer with english subtitles - YouTube

 

Indeed. Probably Japanese lack the Sacrament of Penance.

 

After this short of-topic stint, let's get back to the pathetic character from the initial post:

This is a wonderful description of Léon Degrelle's comrade:

SS-untersturmführer Jacques Leroy, decorated with the Knights Cross on 20 April 1945, the member of 28th SS Volunteer Grenadier Division Wallonien.

That can't be anyone else, just one of his kind exists. Our friend sdkfz has described him indeed so vividly and precisely, except a little detail: Leroy wasn't French. He was Belgian.

He was seriously wounded, lost his eye and his arm and yet he has returned to the Eastern front.
Now you may judge if he was a natural imbecile or shrapnel hasn’t damaged just his eye but disintegrated his brains too.

The first time I have heard him I couldn't believe my ears. What a load of ordinary turd he spoke in just few sentences. That's him:

 

I have an interview from "Military history" magazine of none other than Leon Degrelle.

If you would like me to post it, I'll dig it out and type it up.

For the purposes of this thread, it makes solid reading.

If anyone is interested in reading it, indicate in the affirmative and I will put it up on site and in full.

 

Wot? No Posters?











(Lost most of the links to those - Good, but small, shot of a Lille SS recruitment office here: The refusal to collaborate, The North of France under the Occupation, 1940-1944 - La Coupole, Museum France - Then & Now possibility? )


As for Traitors like Degrelle & Schrijnen, you don't have to wander off some threads on here, among other military themed places, to find plenty of fans still... funny old world.

The Galicians had an 'interesting' Wars' end.
If you go to Cannock Chase Soldatenfriedhof in the UK, there's a fair few interred, and a well-maintained memorial plaque .
Politics - even funnier...
(Thought I had a photo of it from a few years back, but lost the damned thing - some interesting links here:
WW2F - Government: former Waffen SS reside in the UK)

~A

 

Here is the interview, with Leon Degrelle, from the November 2006 issue of "Military History" Magazine. Article written by Colin D. Heaton.


BELGIAN VOLUNTEER IN THE WAFFEN SS


Of the many European fascist leaders who collaborated with the German forces that occupied their countries in World War Two, Leon Joseph Marie Ignace Degrelle was unique in that he put his convictions on the line- the front line, in combat. Earning a doctorate in law at the University of Louvain, he also studied political science, art, archaeology and philosophy, and had written five books by the time he was 20. Disallusioned with what he percieved as corruption in Belgium's government, he joined the Catholic Action Movement and subsequently founded the Socialist Rex Party, whose early populist appeal gained him a seat in the House of deputies at the age of 25.(the youngest statesman in Europe at the time). By May 24, 1936, 34 Rexists had been elected to the Belgian House or Senate, but the party declined soon afterward. Degrelle openly consorted with and took inspiration from Benito Mussolini and Adolf hitler, so when Germany invaded Belgium, it's government arrested him as an enemy agent. He spent several weeks in a prison camp in Southern France.

After Germany overran France and the Low Countries, Degrelle sided with the Nazi occupiers and endorsed Hitler's "Anti-Bolshevik Crusade" against the Soviet Union. When Germany invaded Russia in june 1941, he joined the French speaking Belgian Walloons who volunteered to fight there. Until aged 35 he had never held a firearm in his life, but Degrelle proved a quick study. Wounded seven times, he rose from private to Brigadier General in command of the 28th SS Panzergrenadier Division "Wallonien". He was awarded the Knights Cross and Oak Leaves, among other decorations, becoming the most decorated non-German soldier in Nazi service.

With the fall of Nazi Germany, Degrelle spent the rest of his life in Spain. Belgium sentenced him to death in absentia three times. He wrote three more books and numerous essays, including "Campaign In Russia", which, though banned in Belgium, is widely regarded as a classic firsthand depiction of the savagery of combat on the Eastern Front. Asked for an opinion of Degrelle, one Belgian military attache' said,
"As a soldier, I salute him for his courage on the battlefield; as a Belgian, if we could get our hands on him, I would gladly see him hang for the traitor he is."

Leon Degrelle, the last surviving European Fascist leader, died at age 87 in Malaga, Spain, on 1 April, 1993. Colin Heaton asked Degrelle for his retrospective on his role during World War II.

MH: When and where were you born?
DEGRELLE: I was born in bouillion, Belgium, on June 15, 1906. My father was a brewer, a good Catholic man, and my mother was the most wonderful woman in the world.

MH: What was your education like?
DEGRELLE: My family had been Jesuit educated for many generations, and I went to the College of Notre Dame de la Paix. I studied the classics and theology, but was seriously drawn to politics. I studied law, passed the exams. The Jesuits taught us to expand our minds and pursue knowledge, which I did. Unfortunately, some of my fellow countryman took a dim view of my independant writing and publishing on certain political thoughts. I had a tough time.

MH: You were arrested, were you not?
DEGRELLE: Yes, I was arrested in 1940 by French troops, beaten and moved around damp jail cells, where I was tortured, until I was finally freed by German troops. They knew who i was, since i was the leader of the Rexist Party, which was a Socialist and anti-Communist political party. Seeing that I would not recieve any help, let alone justice from the authourities in Belgium, I decided that the corruption must be challenged.

MH: How did you come to join the German Army?
DEGRELLE: My brother had been murdered, my parents and wife were killed after being tortured, and my chlldren were taken away and scattered to the winds, a situaion that would not be resolved for many years. I basically had some additional political problems, and until the Germans invaded and captured the country, I was not safe. I felt Belgium would only be a great and soverign nation again once Germany had won the war and eliminated the dangers of communism. I formed the first group of volunteers from the Flemish and Walloons and we were formed into our own battallion. Later we were assigned to training centers, and then deployed to Army Group Center.

MH: When did you first arrive in Russia?
DEGRELLE: We entered the Ukraine in October of 1941, after finishing basic training and mountain warfare school, although some of our troops had been diverted to the Demyansk region under Oliver Thoring, a (Nazi) Knights Cross winner who was later killed. They were assigned to the Ninth Army, then later joined us in the south the next year. It was his detachment that captured (Soviet General) Andrei Vlasov in july of 1942. (Vlasov later commanded an army of anti-Communist Russians as a German ally). Many of our men were sent to the Demyansk region as support in late 1941 to early 1942, but were then recalled and joined the 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking in the Ukraine. We later became our own independant unit, the 28th Waffen SS Panzergrenadier Division Wallonien in April 1944, at a ceremony in Brussels. General Josef 'Sepp' Dietrich, Max Wunsche and other notables were there for the induction ceremony. We started with 400 men in late 1940, later growing to about 15,000, but only about 400 would be around after the war, including myself and two other original members. Of the original 6,000 men in the regiment, 2,500 were killed. We had a great combat record, and Hitler personally congratulated me and gave me the Oak Leaves. I believe we had the greatest number of Knight's Crosses of any foreign unit, but I am not sure.

MH: What was it like for you, fighting on the Russian Front?
DEGRELLE: Well, that was where the real war was. The greatest threat was from Communist Russia and thw Western Allies discovered this only too late- we live in a world created by this today. As far as my memeories of Russia go, it must be the weather, especially the bitter winters, and the endless steppe that goes on forever. We were not prepared for this environment. The Russian were used to it and were well clothed to resist the cold. The greatest asset we had were the opportuinties to strip Russian dead and take their padded clothing and felt boots, as well as those marvelous fur hats. They were very adapted to ski warfare, which we were also used to, and were perhaps even better at it, since we were "edelweiss" (Alpenjager) trained as well.

 

MH: What was the worst aspect of fighting on the Russian Front?
DEGRELLE: The partisan war was the worst. We had to adapt immediately to every situation, and the situation always changed. This was especially bad, since they did not wear uniforms and could blend into any village. A typical day was when we moved all night on foot, sometimes with trucks and always looking for the next ambush. The Soviets sent artillery in to try and channel us into their killing zones, but we hit the earth and pushed through, taking casualties every time. The largest partisan fight I was involved in was near the road at Cherkassy, where the partisan cavalry attacked and withdrew quickly. I ordered my men not to pursue, as it was not our mission. When we linked up with members of the Fourth Panzer Army, we felt safer. But that was just the beginning.

MH: You wrote about Soviet atrocities in your book, "Campaign in Russia". Would you describe some of the things you witnessed during the war on both sides?
DEGRELLE: The partisans were usually the worst group to be captured by; they gouged out eyes, cut off fingers, genitalia, toes, and would butcher a man in front of his comrades before beginning their field interrogation. This was confirmed both by soldiers who escaped captivity and defecting partisans who were sickened by the sight and later joined the anti-Stalinist cause. One even had photographs that were turned over to the intelligence section of the Second SS Panzer Army. I saw them. I saw a young German soldier, part of a recon patrol that had dissappeared, who had his legs crudely amputated at the knees with a saw or knife. We could see that even while dying from this procedure he had managed to crawl several meters with his fingers. Another SS man had been crucified alive and his genitals stuffed into his mouth. Several times we witnessed the Soviets and partisans retreating from battle, stopping long enough to kill our wounded, usually by smashing their heads with their weapons or using a bayonet, shovel, ax handle or knife. This did nothing to engender a more humane attitude toward partisans when they were captured.

MH: What was the atmosphere like fighting next to other European volunteers?
DEGRELLE: Well, the Russians certainly hated the Italians, I think even more than they hated the Germans, which I wrote about. I remember Italians being tortured and killed in horrible ways. Once a group of prisoners was stripped of their clothing and dowsed in ice water, and they died by being frozen alive. We discovered these events after recapturing a couple of villages. It was absolutely horrible.

MH: How were the peasants attitudes toward your unit and the Germans?
DEGRELLE: The peasants were just simple people who had suffered under Josef Stalin and the great promises of communism, and they were, for the most part, supportive of us. This was most evident when we attended their religious services. I attended regularly whenever possible, although I am a Catholic. The Russian Orthodox services were handled by priests who had either been in prison, sent to Siberia or living in hiding for many years. We supported their religious freedom, and they responded very well. It was very moving to see parents bring their young children for baptisms and christenings and the old people holding their crucifixes and icons. They prayed for an end to Stalin and his measures; they also prayed for us to win. Another thing that must be remembered is that we assisted these peasants in bringing in their crops, protecting them from partisan reprisals and gave them jobs. They lived a better life under us for three years than under the communists during their entire lives. They also gave us great intelligence on partisan and Red Army activity, and worked as translators and scouts. This was especially true in the Ukraine, although sometimes the Germans in charge would do stupid things and destroy the support we had gained. One village I remember was called Baibusy; We had a great relationship with these Ukrainians and others who fled there. They were marvellous. In the Caucasus, the anti-soviet feeling was incredible, especially among the Kalmucks and Armenians, and they fought for us in a fanatical way. another great memory was an entire village turning out to welcome us as we entered. The people brought out their religious icons and gave us information and valuable intelligence, food, places to stay, everything. The orders from the upper command were to treat these locals humanely; they were our allies. These people became a second family for many of us, and when we left there was a great deal of sadness. Once when Paul Hausser and I attended a religious mass the people knelt before him asif he were a patriarch, blessing him for his presense and for restoring their religious freedom with the candles and gilt images. It was quite an impressive scene.

 

The inspiration of the posters is typically inspired by the PropagandaStaffel. the "UND DU" has been translated into "TOI AUSSI" but the rhetroic is exactly the same. (Fight vs Bolchevism, Comrades side by dise, for the sake of the country etc...)

 

MH; You fought the partisans. What was this type of warfare like?
DEGRELLE: Well, it was the worst. First, there were many different types of partisans. There were the Communist fanatics who were the most dangerous and could not be bargained with. Then there were the peasants, conscripts who had little choice in the matter; and then there were the former Red Army men who joined the partisans due to their units having been cut off and destroyed, although many of the last two groups defected to us at some point. They moved quickly in their pig-skin sandals as light infantry and in small groups, usually at night, using hit-and-run tactics and creating turmoil in general. They placed mines in roads, killed sentires, kidnapped officials and forcibly conscripted recruits, and they were very difficult to catch. In the Caucasus, the terrain was a jungle, very thick with valleys and great forests where we had a very difficult time against the partisans; snipers climbed trees in the very dense forests, they had bunker complexes, under-ground hospitals, weapons manufacturing centers, everything. They had dug live graves - holes in the ground where they shared body heat and were well camouflaged. They lived like animals and fought the same way. Many were freed criminals, even murderers who were brought from jails and placed in units. Their snipers were very deadly and difficult to locate, let alone capture and kill. This type of fighting was the worst. It wore on the nerves of men and reduced humanity to the lowest level. I would rather face the Red Army than those people. The one thing my men and I knew was that however large and present a threat presented by the Red Army, the partisans were the worst enemy to fight.

MH: How did you and your troops fight partisans?
DEGRELLE: They did not wear uniforms unless they were in German clothing sometimes, and they blended well with the local population, which created a problem in choosing who was and was not a partisan. Unless you caught one with a weapon or were actively engaged against them, it was impossible. Later during the war they were absorbed into Red Army infantry and tank units, and sometimes they were given uniforms. I would say the most disturbing aspect of fighting the partisans was that, unlike the Soviet military, the partisans adhered to no set doctrine, used no set order of battle that we could study, and basically struck where it was the most opportune. If we caught and cornered them they were dead, and they knew it. That was why they fought like fanatics.

MH: What was your impression of Red Army soldiers?
DEGRELLE: Very undisciplined and suicidal in their tactics, but very determined in the fight. They had men and women of all ages and racial backgrounds, teenagers to pensioners. It was incredible. I once saw a boy no older than 9 years who had been killed in action, and it made me hate the Communists even more for their disregard for human life. It was also difficult for our men, Walloons, to shoot women and children. We were not accustomed to this, but it became necessary, since they fought just as hard as the men.

MH: What were your general impressions of the prisoners you captured?
DEGRELLE: Most Russians only wanted to surrender. They were usually peasants who had been caught up in the war and were hoping for something better. Many carried the safe conduct passes (the Germans) distributed along the front, guaranteeing safe passage to anyone surrendering. Thousands deserted carrying these passes.

MH: What was the typical condition of your own troops, and how did they cope with conditions on the Eastern Front?
DEGRELLE: We had a few suicides, and some went mad. It was a type of war that cannot be described-it must be experienced, but once experienced, it still cannot be described. Does this make sense? I know it seems vague, but that is the best I can do. The exhaustion, hunger, fear, pain, not to mention the cold of the winter all played their part. Seeing the brutality only made the situation worse. The men were walking ghosts, skeletons that had not eaten a hot meal in weeks, or even a solid meal unless we came across a dead horse or a village that offered us assistance. The orders were that no one would steal or commit any crime against the people. We needed their support, and anything that reduced that support would return to haunt us tenfold. Unfortunately, many German units did not observe this reality. We served with the 5th SS Wiking Division during this period, (1943), and they generally observed the rules. However, there were exceptions.

MH: How did the authorities handle desertions?
DEGRELLE: Those that were caught - and bear in mind that nearly everyone deserting was caught- were hanged, shot, or executed in some fashion and displayed for public viewing. Many were just children, really, who had been sent into a war that was too much for them. They broke down, and they were killed by their own men for it. It was better to stay and face the enemy with the chance of surviving than to desert and definately be caught by the German Feild Police, who were a judge and jury of their own. It was very sad.

 

ITs so strange that one will condem the crimes of someone and then support one who does the exact same things.

 

I really hate saying this, but a lot of it has to do with who wins. I'm not saying that the winners manipulate the truth all the time, but nobody is innocent on either side. It's just the way things are. That's the way I've always looked at it.

 

MH: Did you ever work with the Russian Freiwillingen, ex-Soviet troops who volunteered to fight on the german side?
DEGRELLE: Yes, many times, and it was both a success and a failure. There were some former communists who redefected to the Soviets, but I think most stayed and fought on to the end. They knew what their fate would be if captured by the Communists, and many were anti-communists who were loyal to us. The best volunteers were generally the Western European units, such as our own Walloons, the French Charlemagne Division and the Dutch and norwegian units. The 'Wiking' was perhaps the most notable, and we served with them. They were perhaps the best of all, and were actually the only foreign unit to be designated as an actual SS division, not an auxiliary unit, and they were also made a full panzer division as well.

MH: Were you ever exposed to Soviet propaganda?
DEGRELLE: Yes, quite often. The Reds knew who we were and they would broadcast in French to us, asking us to come over and fight for Charles de Gaulle. This did not work, of course. We actually found it quite amusing.

MH: Tell us about your meetings with the Nazi elite, such as Hitler and the Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler, and what you thought of them.
DEGRELLE: I met Himmler only four times during the war, if my memory is correct, and Hitler I met several times, besides the Knights Cross and Oak Leaves awards. I once had a meeting with both of them at one time when I made a request in 1943 that my men be allowed to have Catholic chaplains, and they agreed. I also refused to partake in anything we deemed unsoldierly, and Paul Hausser, Sepp Deitrich and others supported me. Hitler once told me that if he ever had a son, he wished that he would have been like me. I am not exactly sure why he said this, but I know he respected me, and I think Himmler did as well, although I never trusted him and I was not quite comfortable with him as the Supreme Commander of the SS, including the Waffen SS, which we had joined in 1944. I beleived that Germany could have won the war even after the Americans came into it if the mass of the Eastern peoples had been rallied to our cause.

MH: Hitler personally decorated you with the Knights Cross, didn't he?
DEGRELLE: Yes, in February 1944, following the Cherkassy battle, which was quite rare. I think perhaps 20 or 30 men received the Knights Cross from Hitler personally, and 12 of those were for the Eban Emael airborne operation in May 1940. I received my Knights Cross at the same ceremony where General Herbert Gille received the Oak Leaves, as both of us were at Cherkassy, (at the same time), and General Hermann Fegelein and Himmler were in attendance as well. Josef Goebbels made a great propaganda exploit out the situation, which was meant to assist the foreign recruiting effort. Gille would later be awarded the Diamonds, while Fegelein was shot on Hitler's orders.

MH: What was your final rank when Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945?
DEGRELLE: My rank was SS Oberfuhrer, which is one rank above full colonel and just below Brigadier general, so there is no Allied equivalent. I was promoted to General in the last week of the war, but i never received the promotion to SS Brigadefuhrer.

MH: How did you escape arrest by the Allies and extradition to Belgium or the Soviet Union?
DEGRELLE: This was an interesting situation. After a crazy course through Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Where I met with Himmler in Kiel, Germany, for the last time, we ended up in Oslo, Norway, by ship, and we knew that this situation would not last after my meeting with Quisling. We fueled an aircraft and took off. We ran out of fuel and crashed on a beach in Spain, and I have been here ever since. My own government condemned me to death, but they have not pursued those that murdered my family and killed in the name of their own causes. Justice is determined by those in power, nothing else.

MH: How has your life been since the war?
DEGRELLE: I spend my time writing about the war and meeting old freinds, and now making new ones. I think that people need to understand that there is always another side to a story. If people in your country had suffered the loss of their family due to a political party that was in conflict with your beleifs, then many of your countrymen may find themselves on the other side. Your American Civil War is a prime example.

MH: What do you see yourself doing for the rest of your life?
DEGRELLE: Hopefully still writing, as long as my mind is sharp and I can see; always reading books, and wondering at the great changes that have taken place in my lifetime. The collapse of communism in Europe has proved that we were right. We just needed validation, and now we have it. I think that what we may write is important, but history as it unfolds will prove who was right, and who was wrong. I never beleived in purging Jews and civilians in general, and that was not my war. My war was to fight for my country, which would have been an independent partner of Germany in a Communist-free Europe. This is now a reality, but we fought for it 50 years ago all the same.

MH: Do you feel that communism will eventually die in the rest of the world as well?
DEGRELLE: Yes, it will fall. Governments are the most intangible structures made by man; they change shapes, and are altered by the forces of time and nature. However, i am an optimist. I am hopeful that we as a species will learn from our mistakes, and perhaps there will be hope for us all.

But then again, I could be wrong.


For further reading, Colin D. Heaton recommends Leon Degrelle's book "Campaign in Russia"


Volga Boatman continues....So there you have it. A singular look into the mind and motivations of one of those European Volunteers that fought for Germany in World War II.

Like him or lump him, Leon Degrelle died without coming before any court of law, and unrepentent.

 

Skipper, is there any chance of moving my posts about a little to make the Degrelle interview a little more continuous?

When I type a long post, the server logs me out, and auto-saves only so far down. My first attempt ended with two thirds of the article lost in cyberspace, so i had to type it in chunks, and post it in three or four different pieces. If you could sort it out, I'd be eternally grateful