Victims of the Malmedy Massacre

If 'Das Reich' were Waffen-SS, then Oradour-sur-Glane must rank quite high on the atrocity list ?

 

Truly horrible! Totally unnecessary!

Here´s data on this and a couple of sites, and pics:

http://www.oradour.btinternet.co.uk/

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Question : Why were the people killed and the town destroyed?

Answer : It was a reprisal for the killing of Kämpfe. It does seem barbaric in the extreme, but, this is I think, the answer. Diekmann went to Oradour to destroy. At no time did he or his troops mention to anyone the name of Kämpfe, indeed Diekmann never even mentioned the name to his own men. There was no search for anything in the town, men, arms, ammunition, prohibited merchandise or any other substances. All that happened after the SS rode into town on a storm of wheels, was destruction.

Diekmann was on the 10th June, a thoroughly exasperated man, he had experienced a wretched march from Montauban to St. Junien and had heard reports from all quarters of the depredations of the Resistance, in fact had experienced them himself. The news of the drastic action taken by his colleagues at Tulle (in accordance with the Sperrle orders and Brigadeführer Lammerding's own orders for dealing with terrorists) would be fresh in his mind. The abduction of his friend and comrade Helmut Kämpfe was simply the last straw. When the Milice came to him with their news, implicating Oradour, he took immediate action and then reported what he had done. He did not disobey orders to take hostages if Kämpfe were not found, simply because those orders were never given.

When Diekmann finally did report to Stadler in Limoges that afternoon, Stadler was truly shocked at what had happened, recognising that Diekmann had over-reacted and that unlike in Russia, the affair could not remain hidden. Nevertheless some (ineffectual) steps were taken to try and reduce the impact of the damage as evidenced by the burial parties sent to Oradour on 11th and 12th June.
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On June 10, 1944, the SS occupied the town. The entire population of the town was rounded up. Men were separated from women and children. The women and children were herded into a church. The men were locked in 5 garages and barns, where they were shot. The buildings were then torched. The church with 400 women and children locked inside was also razed to the ground. The SS reported 548 "enemy" killed, with one SS dead and one "wounded". Post-war investigators estimated 393 residents of the town, 167 people from the surrounding countryside, 33 people from Limoges and 55 from other areas were killed during this rampage.

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/oradourtoday.html

 

Going through the site and seeing all the pics--really takes one there and makes you think.

No 9 in no way do I attempt to make a "hero" out of Pieper--especially for his participation or alledged participation in Oradour Sur Glane.

As for what happened in Russia--and not that im defending any actions there but--you also have to see if from their point of view too--to begin to understand why certain things happened in the way that history has shown. By all means--I never will condone the murderings of any innocents--be they soldiers or civilians.

My last piece on Peiper was just to say what is apparently the truth--he was no coward. Had the Germans won the war--he would be a hero--not a criminal.

Had the allies lost--then men like Bomber Harris among others would be looked at as criminals who committed great war crimes. See what I mean?

 

I don´t think any of us think you were making a "hero" of Peiper in the sense of the massacres he was connected with, Carl!If anyone did he should change his mind right now!

As well I think we should concentrate on the war but be aware of what else happened. The other one doesn´t go without the other one in WW2. The German politics in the east were cruel reality, and as well the Russians gave the lot to the Germans later on.On the western front I think in comparison only little things happened as in the eastern front it was daily business.It doesn´t make it any more legal, but to know what happened is important.
To stop these things from happening again any way we can.

I do think though that bringing up the German attrocities only is not TRUE history. The Victor´s history yes, but not the whole truth.
Our aim should be to see the things with both eyes, not just the things we´d like to see.
Politic decisions, generals killing their soldiers for their oldfashioned ideas, terror bombing, concentration camps etc etc.
One thing is certain: You don´t read you don´t know.( unfortunately the victor usually does not give much info on its mistakes...but we are in the position when the files are starting to open up!)

A couple of examples I wonder why they were not dealt with in Normandy:

The bombing of Caen with Goodwood. The Germans were not in the town. The bombing destroyed the city, and killed 3,000 French civilians. The operation was a failure. Who is responsible? Yes, I am quite sure that the result of seeing the bombing boosted the morale among men but would it boost to know 3,000 French died for that?
As well this was not seen as "serious setback" but a "cost worth paying" as these bombings took place at Cobra and then, as 500 US soldiers died by friendly fire, then it was seen as "bad bombing method"..Ok, so you can kill French but not US soldiers by bombing..

As well at Goodwood the tanks were sent without infantry...over 400 tanks were destroyed and if I remember right that was over 30% of the allied tanks in the western front. The attack system was not changed, and Monty carried on.

There´s plenty more...but that´s just history.
I would call these murder, actually. Whoever did it wherever.And to their own men or allies!

It is not so simple to deal these things in my opinion.But trying to keep emotions is important, as it´s not possible to deal things neutrally if you are full of hatred or sorrow.

Just my 2 cents.



PS. Those French who killed Peiper are criminals as far as I am concerned. Anyone who takes law into their own hands without proper authority is a criminal.
And cowards as well for not giving themselves up.
Some of my family were killed by Russians in ww2 but I am not going around looking for Russians that I could kill with Molotov cocktails or rip their arms and legs apart.
The whole Winter War was one big attrocity, by the way...

[ 31. January 2003, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

 

Hi Kai--I didnt think anyone was thinking I was calling him a hero--but from what I understood from No 9's post--it appeared to me that he might had not completely understood my post on Pieper.

He's a criminal--for those other massacres--true--but I firmly believe that he had nothing at all to do with Malmedy. I think he is just popular to blame because he is Waffen SS.

I also truely feel he should have been tried for the other acts he did take part in. I think those acts were forgotten because of his Malmedy trial. Also--no more fitting of a place to have it at than in at Dachau Concentration Camp

 

I've *bumped* this thread for selfish reasons - so that I can easily find it again....

I'm currently reading again about the Bulge and KG Peiper and there are some interesting and useful thoughts and sources in the thread from Timo and others.

 

First picture caption on back "...American soldiers, who were shot by the Germans...Malmedy..."
Second picture caption "...paratrooper of the 101st Airborne Division was killed north of Bastonge, Belgium. When his body was found, his legs were tied and he had been shot in the back and head. Several burns about the body indicated torture by the enemy."

 

C Evans,

I am curious, you've posted the men that were killed in Malmedy. However I have done some research and found that a man by the name of Carl N. Millard was also killed there. He was a PFC in the US Army. Could you help me with this, in finding whether or not this is a fact? Thanks

 

Don't know how to put a copy of my post from Jochen Peiper here so I'll refer to it and the comment made by LT Bouck, commander of 394th I&R platoon at Lanzereth that delayed Peiper's advance by nearly an entire day. The comment is in a book called The Longest Winter, page 279, and it caused me to reconsider somewhat my opinion of Peiper, which previously was along the traditional American held, taught-in-school, view that he was a war criminal and the like. Read my post in Jochem Peiper for more details.

 

I feel a need to bump this as well because I think everyone should see this thread. Naming these men is a great service Carl! Great work!

 

there is always at least one member of soldiers that ''doesn't mind'' [ enjoys?? ] putting a few rounds into the 'enemy', be they POWs, maybe even civilians, etc...probably, maybe a shot/shooting at or near the prisoners, and then chaos erupts....any1 read Fatal Crossroads??

 

Yes, I have a copy which I have read and re-read. Malmedy is one of those incidents which you can perhaps understand how it came to happen - but it still doesn't make it right.

 

Not the book, but the author speaking. I had the pleasure of hearing one of his talks back in 2012.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7rSW8Xzkw

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/26782856

 

all war is horrible....none of it is right...no...very horrible..what humans do to others is ''un''believable....but, <> that's humans