The French defeat at DBP....thats a battle worthy of study while were on the subject..that battle ended Frances hopes of any victory or establishment of Frances old territores. However: ------------------------------------------- The French lost with their huge defeat at Dien Bien Phu on May 7th, 1954, thereby establishing the indepensent state of Vietnam. The rest we already know ----------------------------------------------- The Geneva accords of 1954 did not establish an independant state of Vietnam at all. It created two indignious areas north and south of 17th parralel, the DMZ, with a commitment to free elections within 2 years. That was never going to happen as the USA could not allow the chance that the vote may go the norths way, indeed it looked as if that was going to be the case. As for Cornwallis, Cornwallis surrendered after a battle with Washington ably helped by the French whome victory aT yorktown would not have been possible. Notwithstanding that action of 1781, Cornwallis did not surrender the British army or have authority to surrender British aims and claims in the field, he surrendered the troops under his command at that battlefield. The war went on for 2 more years, ending with a negotiated peace treaty and withdrawal of British troops and loyalists Not a surrender of British arms. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam after a negotiated peace treaty...withdrawing American troops and not surrendering...Both in Paris I believe. Deja vu. Therefore Vietnam was won by the USA and America still flies the Union Jack on all federal buildings. Imaganary illusions in both cases.
Sorry, but your statement that the USA won the Vietnam war could not go without comment. That is what this forum is for. If you truly believe that the USA won the Vietnam war then there is indeed no more to discuss.
Well, I don't think we are getting many facts here, except for statements like: "We won the war and that's it!" kind of Nietzsche's "It is that way because I say so!" Well, ask the veterans who can tell you about many, many patrols which only gave results like these: "3 KIA, 6 WIA, 1 MIA and retreat..." And maybe you're right by saying that the USA didn't face a Diên-Biên-Phu, because indeed there was not such a major battle except for that at Kaison (not sure) when a US fort and air base couldn't be taken by the Viet-Cong because the air-bridge by C-130s... However, as Von Root said, that war was all about $$$$$ It was a war that the USA generals never understood and they never changed their idiotic tactics. It was a war in which there were no major open-field battles like in WWI, WWII or Korea, everything was minor engagement and scaramishes with platoon-size units involved, which ended very bad most of the time because the Viet Kong had many natural advantages. The strategic goal (preventing the expansion of communism in southeast Asia) was not achieved and the USA withdrew leaving everything behind after many years of useless slaughter. The only thing they achieved was increasing their military expenses... And as Bill says, a veteran, who lived it, it didn't seem like a victory.
How did they win the Vietnam war, in no way, you win a war militarily by WINNING THE WAR! Just because they won the very few "major battles, does not win them the war.
Thank you again Urgh for the info. Saying America won Vietnam because they won most of the major engagements really is just not right. They did not win the war, the North Vietnamese. No America did not surrender, but they were forced out. Saying that the USA won the war because they did not surrender is like saying Iraq won Operation Iraqi Freedom because they never surrendered. A war does not have to be won by surrendering, there are other ways. Jet
Friedriche, actually there were many battles not just at Khe san and such fire bases...NVA casualties included whole divisions at times. The American grunt took part in real battles not just insertions etc. The grunt who served in Vietnman if its any consolation to him, fought a war like no other at that time, and battles were fought, the NVA did use armour in attacks to anyone facing an NVA attack made up of 2 or 3 divisions they would certainly know they were in a battle.
Ap Bac Operation Starlite The La Drang Campaign Long Tan Operation Attleboro Operation Bolo Operaton Junction City Rach Ba Rai River Khe Sanh The Tet Offensive Hanburger Hill Operation Lam Son An Loc Thanh Hoa Bridge The Northern Highlands retreats, Da Nang, Hue etc
Yesterday, I was in touch with some gentlemen slightly older than me, mid fifties, all Vietnam era vets. Two of them, one Army, one Navy stated the same thing concerning engagements as both were "in country". Given sectors were "off limits" concerning engaging the enemy, and, many times the reasons why American forces were not allowed in to these sectors were either misunderstood or not understood at all. That is, until the day that one of these men entered in to a given sector, lost, and discovered oil storage tanks! Gives a bit of credo to the above mentioned comment that "a rubber tree was worth more than a soldier's life" to me. And, I have often wondered just what the U.S. government was attempting to do at the time, that being the preservation of a "democratic" government in South Vietnam, or retaining the connection to the oil revenues and the other natural resources of Indo-China for U.S. consumption. Also, concerning the loss of U.S. Marine Lance Corporal MacMahon as Carl stated, the last two casualties at the evac points in Saigon in 1975 were two U.S. Marines who were KIA from a mortar round fired on Tan San Nuht Air base ( about my spelling if in error ). Now, I don't know if the name Carl suggested is correct or not, it doesn't matter to me, could as well be Smith, or Schneider, but the point remains, the last casualty was a U.S. Marine. The last official government casualty. Also, while evacing as many as possible off of the roof of the embassy, twelve U.S. Marines were left defending the approaches ( stairways ) to the roof where the helipads were. They were down to small arms attempting to quell a rising tide of terrified humanity wanting out. After the last Huey departed, the last HH-53, there were reports that we left this contigent behind. But, we did not. I hope these stories are not still circulating about, because the truth is, they radioed frantically for a "dust off", and we did get a ship back in and got them out. 'Nuff said on that. In relation to that, although not mentioned here on this thread as of yet, the C-5 that went down during "Operation Babylift", the evac of Vietnamese infants and their nursing care, was not taken down by the loss of a rear seal of a cargo door. I have spoken with a man who was involved in the attempted operation to detect if there were any survivors. ( Yes, the Air Force has their own special forces ). They went in towards the crash site in teams with no rank insignia to designate who they were. According to him they got to with in a couple hundred yards of the crash site, and found it swarming with NVA regulars pouring over the sight. They were eventually detected, and taking fire, had to pull out, and yes, this too might be b.s., but knowing the guy, I doubt it. Just something that folks don't write down in the history books. Vietnam was the "10,000 day war", conflict, engagement, police action, what ever you want to call it. But nothing was really gained. It never is in war. Jokingly on another thread with Urqh, I stated I wanted war twenty-four seven, with "rocks thrown, clubs smashing", blah, blah, blah, but that is the furthest from the truth. Von Clauswitz stated it perfectly. "War is politics by other means". And what Carl said about the two gals spitting on me in San Fransisco, California upon returning from the Pacific. Well, I wasn't going to address it as he already had, but yes, I will never forget watching the spittle running down my uniform and dripping off the buttons. Others got worse, but you know, what TOTALLY floored me was this was in 1978 - three years AFTER the fall of Saigon! Be good to each other. Bill
South Korean R.O.K.'s in Vietnam- heard somewhere that they had been around Ma Lai durring the supposed American inflicted massacre there- not sure I believe all the particulars there as well either. Also heard that U.S. Arty was supposed to flatten the village but troopers wouldn't leave.
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/Allied.htm And if your still reading this thread ww2buff, dont stop posting... All views are valid, no one is attacking you, we are all entitled to a view and a opposite view, though sommetimes facts have to be presented. If truth be known I agree, like Carl with your first post of the thread, and I certainly do not disparage any vet from Vietnam. My argument is only with the wording of one of your later posts..But hey look at some of mine..Some of em are quite embarrasing... Got to hate that Martin Geezer, keeps picking me up...
VERY well written Andy, Mike, Bill, Urgh.... From Bill's description of the evac from that rooftop--I sure do remember those scenes well--from the nightly news. Such a small rooftop--yet there was an American chopper trying to rescue who they could. Seeing that some Marines were not on the chopper when the flood of refugees surged toward that aircraft--sent a chill up my spine then--when I was merely 8 years old and it Still sends that shiver to this day when I see those scenes replayed as part of some documentary being played. This could have been utter chaos-and maybe was but--they still pulled it off. I owe eternal grattitude to any and all vets--and especially those vets that were there.
and, two sentences later: So what now? You're right. It would be a good start if you post some of the FACTS you claim to have to convince me (and some others here) that The U.S actually won the Vietnam war. I'm just a stupid fellow, an overloaded helicopter leaving from the U.S. embassy while a T-54 full of Vietcong is rolling over the Stars and Stripes and U.S. military helis dumped into the sea from a carrier to make place while the North Vietnamese national flag was waving over entire Vietnam isn't much of a sign for an U.S. victory to me. Couldn't find too many Coca-Cola Inc. factories in South Vietnam after 1975, neither. Just Commies. Cheers, [ 19. May 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]
Thank you Andy. I am not sure myself what I am saying. But in any case, even if I did come up with conclusive proof that the US won the war, you would never believe me. However, I adamantly stand by my claim that we won in a MILITARY sense(Believe it or not) But we lost our objective of keeping S.Vietnam free. I say it for the last time.
Andy - Those helo's you saw being dumped all those years ago off the fan tails of the U.S. Seventh Fleet were mainly flown by escaping South Vietnamese ARVN ( Army Of The Republic Of Vietnam ) troops, fully armed, and running with their own skins intact while the civilian population had to face the brunt of the NVA take over. Also, Andy, you and our other German contingent of members here might get a laugh out of this. The "funniest" thing I have seen of late is when a German born Vietnamese whose parents escaped to Germany after the collapse of Saigon, and who was born in Germany, visited his Vietnamese aunt who works with my wife. Upon informing him that she worked with a woman, my wife, whose husband's side of the family by his mother, herself, her brother, and my maternal grandparents, had immigrated to the U.S. after World War II, and could speak German with him, came to visit us. After awhile, with him only being able to speak Vietnamese and German, myself German and English, and my wife only English, it was brought to my attention that my German was incorrect, and I needed to work on my pronunciation! When asked which part of Germany he was from, he said Leipzig. Well, I told him, our family came from the Hamburg-Bremen area of Germany, and I was taught by the family to speak "hoch deutsch" not "sud deutsch" or "platt deutsch". I guess the remnants of the Vietnam era still come to be from time to time for me. Bill
Blimey Bill its twenty to eight in the morning over here....and youve just given me my first headace of the day... So in fact your Croatian with a semblence of Viking in the blood who speeks perfect Mandarin Chinese.. Two white ones please dear...dissolve em in water thanks and an ice pack....
Sorry had to slip this one in.. Someone mentioned the French. http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/index.htm
Bill, I thanks for the background on the "dump". I alwas thought this is one of the more impressive pictures, (along with the headshot of the VC and the napalm-child running out of the village) with all the symbolism in it... As for the mixed up world we're living in: lol, guess that's globalisation! And hundred years ago, people read of a earthquake killing thousands weeks after it happened! Cheers,