Was Churchill overrated?

In general terms the dreadnaughts are irrelevant, Britain entered the war because Germany invaded Belgium and we had a duty to protect Belgium.

 

Ladies and Gentelmen:

Herman Goering was adding to his beloved Karen Hall while the German 6th (sixth) Army was on a starvation diet. He had promised Hitler that the Luftwaffe would deliver all the supplies that the Sixth Army would need.

He then promptly told the Lutwaffe to support the North African operation and lost over 50 of his heavy transport aircraft. This not speak of minding the objective. If was high on booze and drugs why was he not removed?

As Ever,

Walter L. Marlowe

Airborne all the Way)

 

Hello Drucius,

not at all old chum. Germany's territory size (not taking the colonies into account) was about 2 times that of GB without its colonies. Germany's population as you already noted was about 50% above GB. Furthermore Germany is not an Island but is bordered directly to its maybe enemies. That therefore the spendings on the Armed Forces are off course greater in their sum is logical and necessary. The economic and political balance of a country is measured in per/capita and not in total sums. As such GB and Germany allocated their national budget in balance to each others interests.

Plus that not a single German colony stood up finacially for its own defense such as Canada, NZ, Aus, India, etc. and that in total contrast to GB and France, Germany could not request or be given millitary support by its colonies in the event of a war.

Germany during the cold war maintained by far the largest Armed forces in NATO after the USA, also the 2nd highest defense Budget within NATO. Therfore to your logic it would be okay for the former Soviet Union to forward - Germany above all other European NATO members was preparing to attack.

Yes we know that side of the story, and Russia had mobilized and refused to demobilize, and the Kaiser had the duty to protect Germany

Pretending that Russia, France, Austria and Italy had no warlike intentions in 1914 and that GB would stay neutral in the event of a war is disingenuousness taken to ludicrous extremes.

Regards
Kruska

 

So you concede that your figures "proving" that "The UK spend as much per head as Germany on the army. The UK spend 3times more per head as Germany on the navy" are rubbish and in fact prove the very opposite? That seems fair.

Presumably you're unaware that the British Army was posted in many places across the world in order to protect British intrests? Part of the British Army's job was to police the Empire just as much as it was part of the Heers. I don't know why you bring up the colonies, Germany was getting plenty of help from the Austro-Hungarian Empire to make up for any shortfall.

Germany during the cold war didn't exist. East Germany possibly was preparing to attack, West Germany certainly wasn't so we'll never know for sure. Have you any other misleading irrellevances left? Let's get them all over with at once, please.

What exactly has this to do with the UKs entry into the Great War and Churchill? Russia mobilized because Germany's stooge, Austria, invaded Serbia.

See what happens when you start wars? Often ends in tears.

Not as much as pretending that those countries should take no interest in what happens to neighbouring countries, chummy.

 

Hello Kruska
I turn my back for a minute and you start causing trouble again
That the Kaiser had to mobilise his forces due to the emergency with Russia and A-H over Serbia is fair enough, but that shouldn't have lead to war, as these telegrams the Tsar sent to the Kaiser show.
This is a message the Tsar sent to Willie on Russia’s mobilisation;

On receipt from Willie of a telegram stating Germany would also have to mobilise, the Tsar responded by asking for;

The problem was Germany had only the one plan in event of war breaking out between any of the major players in the two power blocks, the Schlieffen Plan, and that plan required that Germany attacked first, so any mobilisation by either Russia and France would lead to war, even though France or Russia were unaware of this fact.

 

Hello redcoat, licking your paws on some maybe dispute?

Fair enough on your account - however the Zar was already in the hands of the Russian military - please see my previous post in regards to the Russian CoS or my below reply to Drucius.

Regards
Kruska

 

try and read again - maybe next time you get it right

In contra to you I know the difference between a colony or crown colony and an independent Empire such as Austro-Hungaria. Check a KIA list in regards to Britains losses during WWI and you might understand who got killed on behalf and besides the British.

If I got the numbers about right - there were about 90,000 Brits and colonials fighting against 4000 Germans and their colonials in German-East-Afrika (todays Tansania). BTW the Brits didn't win.

Just replace Germany with the term West-Germany if that makes it easier for you to follow - the content of the comparrison stays the same.

That Britain got into a war on behalf of another nation's souveranity (according to British history) whilst Germany has no problem at all to face the fact that it got into a war to protect and defend its own interests. The postings that you are following in between redcoat and me have nothing to do with the rating thread of Winston Churchill. Haven't you noticed??

Exactly, see how many British and their colonials died for 'supposedly" defending solely Belgium neutrality. Britain declared war on Germany -chummy - not the other way around.

This is how wars get started old chummy. (taking interest in other countries) India or its Maharanis never declared war on Britain, but somehow Britain got interested in India, North America, South America, Caribbien, Africa, Australia, Afgahnistan, Malaysia, Burma, China, Indonesia, etc. etc. and GB couldn't be bothered about the souveranity of those states involved plus meddeling in Continental Europe, which to you seems to be totally allright but not for others hmm?

I believe that the English language terms this as Hipocracy

Germany was in alliance with Austria - Austria was in quarrels with Serbia - Russia was in alliance with Serbia you can follow so far?

Serbian terrorists murder the archduke of Austria - Austria has solid reasons to believe that the Serbian government is behind this. Austria however can't punish Serbia without risking Russian interference - therefore the Kaiser tells them "No matter what - I will stand to my alliance and respect an independent souverain nation in its rights"

Just as GB later did in regards to Belgium!!!

Austria declares war on Serbia - Russia mobilizes - the Kaiser begs the Zar to demobilize - the Zar doesn't - Germany declares war on Russia - Russian troops enter East Prussia the following day.

Now I find it extremly interesting that the Germans who "according to some people and historians" wanted the war, were not ready to do so, but the Russians were able to attack first. even the French Army AFAIK opened up hostillities first.

Now the Russian CoS admitted later on that the Zar could not have demobilized anyway - since the Russian military had already decided on the 25th of July to attack Germany.

The red marked expressions and wordings are the typical example of a certain British posting / discussion style, which I have no problem with to hurl back.

Now go and exersise on your bagpipes whilst I will be clapping on my Lederhosen

(German posting style upon receiving a certain British postingstyle)

Regards
Kruska

 

Hello Kruska.
The French army didn't open up hostillities on the Western front, the Germany army did with its attack on Belguim (3rd August) and the battle of Leige on the 5th August ,the French offensive didn't start until the 7th.
First World War.com - Battles - The Battle of Liege, 1914
First World War.com - Battles - The Battle of Mulhouse, 1914

Also, the date I have for Russian forces entering East Prussia is the 12th August with some cavalry, followed by the main force on the 17th.
First World War.com - Battles - The Battle of Stalluponen, 1914

 

Hello redcoat,

Berlin, 2. Aug. source; Frankfurter Zeitung
Eine französische Abteilung hat bei dem elsässischen Orte Reppe die deutsche Grenze überschritten. Damit steht fest, daß Frankreich ebenso wie Rußland uns ohne Kriegserklärung angegriffen hat. 2)

Berlin, 2. Aug.
A French detatchment has crossed the German border near the village of Reppe in Alsacce. Therefore it is for certain that France as well as Russia have attacked us without a declaration of war.

Berlin, 3. Aug. (W. B. Amtliche Mitteilung.)
Bisher haben deutsche Truppen dem erteilten Befehle gemäß, die französische Grenze nicht überschritten. Dagegen greifen seit gestern französische Truppen ohne Kriegserklärung unsere Grenzposten an. Sie haben, obwohl uns die französische Regierung noch vor wenigen Tagen die Innehaltung einer unbesetzten Zone von 10 Kilometern zugesagt hat, an verschiedenen Stellen die deutsche Grenze überschritten. Französische Kompanien halten seit gestern Nacht deutsche Ortschaften besetzt. Bomben werfende Flieger kommen seit gestern nach Baden, Bayern und unter Verletzung der belgischen Neutralität über belgischen Gebiet nach der Rheinprovinz und versuchen, unsere Bahnen zu zerstören. Frankreich hat damit den Angriff gegen uns eröffnet und den Kriegszustand hergestellt. Die Reichssicherheit zwingt uns zu Gegenmaßnahmen. Seine Majestät der Kaiser hat die erforderlichen Befehle erteilt. Der deutsche Botschafter in Paris ist angewiesen worden, seine Pässe zu fordern. 2)

Berlin 3rd August offical government report,
So far German troops according to the order given have not crossed the French border. However French troops since yesterday (2nd August) are attacking our border guard posts. they have crossed the German border on several places. French company's have occupied since yesterday evening (2nd August) several German towns. Bomb throwing aircraft have
been sighted over Baden and Bavaria and by violation of the Belgium neutrality are crossing Belgium airspace in order to attack railwaylines in the Rhineland. France therefore has opened hostilities against us and has set the state of war. The responsibility towards our countries security, forces us to take countermeasures, the Kaiser has given the respective orders.

This German information differs from the english website that states, however without naming a source:
2nd August

France entered at four points.
Patrol kill French soldiers 10 km over frontier near Belfort​

As for Russia:

obwohl Kaiser Wilhelm am 1. August in seinem letzten Telegramm an den Zaren (Deutsche Dokumente Nr. 600) diesen dringend bat, seine Truppen anzuweisen, auf keinen Fall die deutsche Grenze zu verletzen, fielen noch am selben Tage russische Abteilungen in deutsches Gebiet ein. (Deutsche Dokumente Nr. 629, 662, 664, Untersuchungsausschuß, Heft 2, S. 16, Anm.)

Even though the Kaiser in his last telegram on 1st of August to the Zar sincerely requested him to order his troops not to violate the German border, Russian units (detachments) on the same day entered German territory (German documents Nr. 629, 662, 664,)

Unfortunatly (at least I believe so) you do not speak German, otherwise the offical investigation account in 1922 reveals the entire picture that lead to WWI - it shows and documents very clearly that Russias military leadership (not the Zar) clearly intended to attack Germany - even before Austria and Germany fully mobilized. France had pledged full support to Russias intention on 24th July (7 days before Germany mobilized) -Englands king George had promised Wilhelms brother Heinrich, that GB would stay neutral.(German documents 207, 374)

Hu, lucky I found an English website too, which verifys the German report, however without naming a source:
First World War.com - On This Day - 1 August 1914

1st August 1914
Germany, having ostensibly ordered general mobilisation 5 p.m., declares war on Russia 7.10 p.m.; makes out that Russians had crossed frontier in afternoon and begun war. (Declaration drafted before noon.)​

Also interesting sidenote same english website: 2nd August 1914

England assures France that British fleet will stop German fleet if latter attacks French shipping in Channel.​

(In that case GB would have positioned herself against Germany 2 days before Germany attacked Belgium)​

Kriegsausbruch 1914 - Die russische Gesamtmobilmachung
Die Deutschen Dokumente zum Kriegsausbruch 1914



Regards
Kruska

 

Hah, as much as the Polish attacked Germany in 1939, eh? What a lot of rubbish.

You are much misguided and reading god knows what kind of history books, Kruska.

 

Hello Drucius,

you obviously and sadly though, didn't get the message old chummy,

The bagpipe is a very harmonious instrument if used and played properly and skillfull - it is a torture to soul and teeth if meerly squeezed, tormented and sensless blown into.

So I would dearly suggest that either you actually try to learn it in an appropriate way instead of wasting your and others time and interest by uttering sensless, offensive, squeeling, biased and mindharming sounds.

In which case it just adds unjustified to a very disturbing impression and judgement upon bagpipeplayers in general.

Regards
Kruska

 

Kruska, do you know the difference between an onion and a bagpipe? Nobody cries when you take a knife to a bagpipe and slash it to shreds!

 

Hello brndirt1,

no honestly, I like to hear a bagpipe that is played well - especially when my Scottish friend handles it masterfully, and after 5-6 beers (German size) I will even ask him to continue.

Regards
Kruska

 

De gustibus non disputandum est.

Julius Ceasar

 

"Makes out" means "pretends". Your verifying website is pointing out that the German declaration of war was drafted before the Russians are supposed to have violated German borders. It's clear that the Germans cooked up a pretext to declare war because war was what they wanted. Which is the point I was making, really.

 

I got nothing wrong, German military spending is clearly far higher than the UKs.

What's your point? Germany was an Empire, so was Turkey, so was Austro-Hungary. So what? Is there a difference between a Pole fighting for the German Empire and a Kiwi fighting for the British? No, there isn't so stop being silly.

Um...irrelevant or what?

What rubbish. Where's the source? Where's the reason for this irrelevance even being here?

More self-serving nonsense, it's clear in every WWI history I've read (and I've read a ton) that Germany were the aggressor.

Because Germany invaded Belgium, yes. What's your point?

So you admit that Germany wanted to have an overseas empire just like Britain's? Now we're getting somewhere.

Refuting a pack of misinformation isn't hipocracy.

Is that what he was doing when Germany invaded neutral Belgium?

More rubbish.

The Austro-Hungarian Empire must have been gutted when Serbia conceded to 8 out of 10 of Austria's ludicrous demands; it meant they didn't have a valid excuse to declare war on them. But they went ahead and did it anyway.

So the UK did enter the war because Germany invaded Belgium, yes?

According to you, Russian troops were attacking Germany's border before Germany declared war. You're clearly just making this stuff up.

Source? None.

Go slap a Pickelhaube.

 

make out = pretend?? to make out an enemy means = to see/to recognize/to spot, it doesn't imply to make up = imagine or pretending/faking. The 3 incidents are recorded (German documents Nr. 629, 662, 664,).

dict.cc Wörterbuch :: to make out :: Deutsch-Englisch-Übersetzung
to make out ausmachen
ermitteln
feststellen
herausfinden
unterscheiden
ausnehmen

AFAIK the Americans even use this expresion in regards to dating.

That a war declaration is drafted before it is handed over I believe to be common sense. Upon the Zar's full mobilisation order and the fruitless telegrams between Willy and Nicky towards the ultimatum of 1st of August it is understood that the Kaiser had to prepare for war by the 1st of August.

Otherwise what be the meaning or sense of an ultimatum.?

That is your personal opinion backed by nothing and in contra to the Willy/Nicky letters and the whole recorded rundown of protocols and documents provided in 1922 and maybe you could actually start to read up on the numerous quotes and webpages given istead of uttering mindless bagpipe sounds.

Why should I slap a Pickelhaube? those are priceless artifacts and collector items
But nevertheless I find even a bit of priceless British humor in it

Anyway I just noticed Slipdigits post, since your reply post 156 clearly shows that this topic is way above your comprehension I will glady retire from this absurd theatrical display of your randomised blah, blah.

De gustibus non disputandum est.
Indeed it applies to your posting style and my interpretation of it.

Regards
Kruska

 

Posted in error, apologies.