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Western Union, 1963

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by Volga Boatman, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    VB, I believe you view of Jack Ruby is slightly mistaken, he wasn't "mob connected", the Chicago mob wouldn't have anything to do with him. He received the call for money from his dancer at home (collect), and drove to the Wells Fargo office to send the money. He then saw the commotion over at the Police station and walked over to see what was going on.

    He asked, and since he was a constant visitor to the station admitted to the lower level without question. He was a friend of the Dallas PD in more ways than one, and stayed on their "good side" since some of his activities in the "back" were quite illegal. He always carried his little hammer less S&W for protection, since he was constantly carrying cash to and from his club. He so "didn't plan" to kill Oswald, he even took one of his beloved Dachsunds with him to the Wells Fargo office, and left her in the car. He wouldn't have done that if he hadn't planned on returning to the car in little time. None of his "ties", non of his "plans", and non of his "actions" put him in any frame but an outraged man who acted on impulse, his impulsive actions were matters of record, and his friendship with the Dallas PD had saved him from many assault charges over the years, when he pistol whipped patrons at his club for insulting his dancers.

    Don't try to read more into Ruby than he was. It is unfortunate that he walked across the street, and that he impulsively reacted as he did, but nothing more.
     
  2. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    But Brndrt, this does not explain his presense elsewhere, especially Parkland Memorial, where a reporter he knew accidently ran into him standing next to a hospital stretcher....

    Ruby has been firmly fingered as the 'plant man' for the 'Magic Bullet'. You cannot tell me that this bullet simply 'fell out' of connelly after all that distance supposedly travelled inside a human. Bullets 'lodge' themselves into people, they NEVER fall out of their own weight. So thats Ruby at Parkland Memorial.

    If you lie about your reasons for perpetrating, you will also lie about your reasons for being there. I would not take anything Ruby said at face value. Even given that his Dachsund made the trip with him is not existential proof that he went to Western Union solely to 'wire some cash'....Ruby spent far more time than was strictly necessary in Western Union, up to 40 minutes. And he talked to NOONE. He wasn't there to socialize.

    What was he waiting for? I wondered the same thing.....

    Further, why, if the 'commotion' was such, and Ruby so well known, did Jack take the side door? He most definately did NOT go down the ramp. The man at the top of the ramp was one of those officers that knew Ruby by sight. He states quite clearly that Ruby 'suddenly appeared'.

    Noone remembers Ruby mingling with the crowd in the basement. Most witnesses describe the same thing. Ruby wasn't ther, waiting tediously, he was over in the air-conditioned Western Union Office for as much as forty minutes....waiting....as befitted his status as a businessman....waiting in comfort...

    Then he "suddenly appears"....and did not go down the ramp....so...how did he KNOW the precise time that Oswald was getting into the elevator?

    ONLY a man 'on the spot' could tell exactly when that was happening...a man inside the offices...with access to LHO by sight....and with business in the office to not be seen to be 'hanging around'...

    There must be only a handful of Police Officers that meet all those criteria, and with acess to a telephone, (not all Police offices had phones)......the man that fits ALL these criteria, including an acess to a private telephone...is none other than Captain WILL FRITZ.....The same man who was so sure on camera of Oswald's guilt "Beyond a reasonable doubt."

    If we wanted to get really quick results, we could have found out the names of the officers who APPLAUDED right after Oswald was shot. These are likely accomplaces, the only men not hanging off Will Fritz who would be likely to greet such a miscarriage of justice as a 'good thing'.

    And other knew that Harvey Oswald's murder was the 'signal' to play it cool. The Mortician who worked on Kennedy's body took his family out of town directly after finishing "the job" on Kennedy's body. He told his family, they were going out of town, "..until all this blows over." Sitting in their hotel room, the perplexed family watch the mortician glued to the screen, looking for news of the shooting. At the precise moment Oswald was shot, he looked about the room and said, "Well thats all over....we can go homw now...."

    The Policemen that applauded at that precise moment knew the same thing. As trained law enforcement officials, they must have been well aware that Oswald's murder could have cost them all their jobs...should have.....That the shooting meant trouble for anyone trying to prosecute the case.....

    But APPLAUDING would do one of two things. It would expose you as a cop who did not have a very good grasp of the rights of a victim to a fair trial. For this alone, applauding is the very LAST thing athose cops should have done...secondly, given this, applauding would expose your complicit knowledge. Why would you see Obstruction of Justice as a good thing? You would only see it this way as a police officer if you knew the same thing as that mortician did...that Oswald's death took the pressure off...you could 'carry-on' from here.....

    So, this all adds up to Jack Rubenstein as a LIAR....not a very good one either. He's not a vigilante, he's a hired gun, silencing the man on the spot.

    And who made that call? Who indeed...most likely Will Fritz himself, one of a very few people both inside that Station, and close to Oswald, AND with his own private office equipped with a TELEPHONE.
     
  3. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    Further to that, were there any Western Union Offices between Ruby's departure point, (either at home or the Carosel Club), and his destination, a western Union office conveniantly located across the street from the Dallas Police Station.

    If there were any other offices of Western Union closer to Ruby's departure point, this would expose him as a liar again. Why would you drive past other offices to park yourself outside of a Polic station that you had no business being in?

    For a man with known Mob connections, and one that was hanging around the various locations of this crime like a bad smell, even brazen enough to correct newsmen while he doe it, I think history gives Jack Ruby far too much acceptance of his facile excuses for his actions in Dallas.

    And again....why shoot a man who was already in custody? Suely a man as well aquainted with the Police as he was was in on the gossip that Oswald was considered to be "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" by the members of the force. If so, why would he bother to commit 'an impulsive act' in front of a crowd of Police officers, with a death sentence waiting if caught?

    Ruby must have firmly beleived his contacts and freindships with the Force members would be some kind of insurance that would guarantee his escape. There is no other reason to commit suicide, and thats exactly what Jack was doing...committing suicide....all for Jackie Kennedy? What a blatant LIAR!

    omeone offered Ruby something very BIG to get him to do this.

    Only his Mafia contacts could have promised anything that Ruby wanted. You say the Chicago Mob wanted nothing to do with him? Well, a quick offer by Chicago bosses could have gone a long way with Ruby. As an old chicago boy, and with his business failing in Dallas, Ruby may have thought this was the best way to go back to Chicago as a 'made' man, with the praises of his bosses ringing in his ears.
     
  4. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    By the way.....the above described mortician who worked on Kennedy's body was an associate of.....(wait for it)....DAVID FERRIE

    He also appeared in a photo sitting at a table at the Carosel Club with none other than JACK RUBY.
     
  5. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    JFK began the Vietnam war. Detente with the Soviets was not possible, in that era. If he wanted to break up the CIA, he would have done so.

    The Kennedy mystique is all about what people think he wanted to do, not what he actually he did. He didn't do much at all. He went to Berlin and made a nice speech. He dumped a bunch of Cubans at the Bay of Pigs, then betrayed them. He banged some movie stars. Then he got shot.
     
  6. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I can think of a few, and he didn’t start the Vietnam war that had been going on since the end of WW2, he increased the number of “advisors” in country from the Eisnenhower levels, and did slightly increase the number of combat troops, mostly in the number of ‘Special Forces, 400.

    He also authorized the sending of helicopter units to aid the South, to transport and direct (recon for) South Vietnam forces on the ground. and by his assassination date I think there were about 16,000 “advisors and helicopter personnel in Vietnam. That massive increase in combat troops was under Johnson, and the greatest mistake in Johnson's presidency.

    As to the Bay of Pigs, that was a left over plan from the Eisenhower days, and supported by the CIA when he took office. His not supporting them when their initial failure was obvious and was prudent. Even though it wasn’t his plan, he took responsibility for it since he could have cancelled the operation, but didn’t.

    As to his pluses, how about the Peace Corps, an organization that still exists and puts America’s best foot forward to people around the world. How about his sensible (not war hawkish) approach to the Cuban Missile Crisis, that ultimately diverted nuclear war with the USSR, and secured the removal of the missiles from Cuba. Removing the obsolete missiles from Turkey was already in the works, the only thing that changed is that they were not replaced with more modern missiles.

    It was JFK that really put the money and inspiration behind NASA so that we could and did land a man on the moon before the end of the decade. His perseverance got the limited test ban treaty with the USSR passed and ratified by Congress.

    He was instrumental in the Area Redevelopment Act which supplied Federal aid to states that were suffering high unemployment rates. His administration passed the first laws to end segregation in interstate travel facilities. And since he couldn’t get much congressional support from the Southern Block in Congress, he issued an executive order that prohibited discrimination in the sale or lease of housing that was financed by federally guaranteed loans, or owned by the federal government.


    And even though his tax cut plan wasn’t implemented until after his death, his administration reduced it from Eisenhower’s 91% top rate, to 62%.

    Not a perfect record, but not bad for one which was very limited in time, 2.8 years. But we are getting far off topic of Jack Ruby and the Western Union, BTW Ruby seems to have always used that office, don't know if it was closest to his home or his business. The reason he was there for so long was the line of customers sending telegrams concerning the assassination to friends and family outside of Dallas.
     
  7. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    You don't invade a country because an old plan was lying around. That's like saying Bush invaded Iraq because Clinton had a plan for it (which he did).

    JFK was just a very charismatic man. Women adored him and men wanted to be like him, etc, etc. People projected their desires onto him and since he was president at the peak of American power and influence, he will always be associated with that time. If he had remained and been re-elected, he would probably be remembered for Vietnam and philandering. His halo would be tarnished.

    It's rather like Lincoln. If Lincoln hadn't been shot in April, 1865, would he now be remembered for the abuses and corruption of the reconstruction era?
     
  8. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Still we are getting far afield here, so this is my last post in this direction. It (Bay of Pigs) wasn’t an old plan just “laying around”, it was the last of the anti-Castro plans of the Eisenhower administration which had been ongoing since 1959. And I wouldn’t doubt that Eisenhower’s meeting with President elect Kennedy on December sixth of 1960 helped persuade JFK to go ahead with the plan. Who knew more about amphibious landings than Eisenhower? Eisenhower met with President elect Kennedy in December of 1960, and the CIA also briefed Kennedy shortly after his election, they were also jung-ho about the invasion they had mostly planned and gotten funding for. He should have called it off, as many of his own advisers recommended, why he didn't remains a mystery to myself.

    Unfortunately not only was the plan known of due to open discussions in the media, Castro was pretty sure he knew where it would be landed and moved his own troops to coastal positions.

    As to Clinton having a plan for the invasion of Iraq, I really think you should read the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, much more closely. It authorized non-military support for those groups opposed to Hussein, and the bombing of designated targets inside of Iraq in response to Hussein refusing the inspectors full access to all Iraqi suspect locations, and the eventual throwing out of said inspectors. No American “boots on the ground” invasion plans existed.

    The Act specifically refused to grant the President authority to use U.S. Military force to achieve its stated goals and purposes, except as authorized under the Act in section 4(a)(2)) in carrying out this Act. That section allowed for the use of existing military munitions held in American arsenals for aid to anti-Hussein groups in Iraq.. But no American military forces per se.

    Lastly, it was Andrew Johnson's reconstruction plan that was implemented and not Lincoln's "malice toward none" proposal.

    For a great "timeline" leading up to the Bay of Pigs fiasco;

    Goto:

    Bay of Pigs Chronology

    and for Lincoln's plan;

    Even before the war ended, President Lincoln began the task of restoration. Motivated by a desire to build a strong Republican party in the South and to end the bitterness engendered by war, he issued (Dec. 8, 1863) a proclamation of amnesty and reconstruction for those areas of the Confederacy occupied by Union armies. It offered pardon, with certain exceptions, to any Confederate who would swear to support the Constitution and the Union. Once a group in any conquered state equal in number to one tenth of that state's total vote in the presidential election of 1860 took the prescribed oath and organized a government that abolished slavery, he would grant that government executive recognition.

    Lincoln's plan aroused the sharp opposition of the radicals in Congress, who believed it would simply restore to power the old planter aristocracy. They passed (July, 1864) the Wade-Davis Bill, which required 50% of a state's male voters to take an "ironclad" oath that they had never voluntarily supported the Confederacy. Lincoln's pocket veto kept the Wade-Davis Bill from becoming law, and he implemented his own plan. By the end of the war it had been tried, not too successfully, in Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Virginia (states largely under Union control). Congress, however, refused to seat the Senators and Representatives elected from those states, and by the time of Lincoln's assassination the President and Congress were at a stalemate.

    Goto:

    http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/reconstruction-lincoln-plan.html
     
  9. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I suppose the difference between Eisenhower's plan and Kennedy's implementation was that Eisenhower wouldn't have lost his nerve and abandoned them.

    Really though, the point is that Jack Kennedy died young and became a martyr and a myth. His actual accomplishments don't amount to much. He made noises about civil rights, but Johnson actually implemented civil rights action by beating the dixiecrats into submission - something Kennedy was afraid to do. Still, Kennedy gets the praise rather than Johnson. On the other hand, Kennedy began the Vietnam build up and Johnson gets the blame...

    I just don't get the whole Kennedy "Camelot" thing.
     
  10. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you and I disagree about Kennedy but that's ok. The southern block of Democratic senators from the eleven ex-Confederate states had been fighting "civil rights" since the end of the Civil War, and NO civil rights bills were ever going to pass, even Lyndon Johnson voted against them all when they came up and even his maiden speech in the Senate was opposed to civil rights.

    The credit Johnson deserves is that he could change his mind and see the direction the political demographics and opinions were headed, and push through Kennedy's Civil Rights bill post assassination, which Kennedy couldn't do while he was alive. This did precipitate the formation of the Dixicrats, and the eventual abandonment of the Democratic Party by the Southern Contingent. Nixon saw the trend and implemented his "Southern Strategy" to lure even more southern states into the Republican Party espousing his belief in States Rights, Southerns liked the sound of that and voila instead of a solid Democratic south, a solid Republican south came into being.
     
  11. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Johnson passed the civil rights act because the republicans backed him - or, he was just pragmatic enough to reach across the aisle and get their support. A higher percentage of republicans voted for the act than democrats, which only makes sense because the republicans were the traditional anti-slavery party and the democrats were the traditional pro-slavery party.

    That's my view and you're right, it's OK if we disagree! We are getting pretty far off-topic though...
     
  12. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Let's hold on little bit with the pro and con JFK posts. We have a larger fish to fry.

    Why is this JFK conspiracy thread here again, Volga? Did we not close the last one you opened and admonish you about it?
     
  13. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

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    i did NOT open the last one, thanks....

    Steve Sheag did, alias 36ID.
     
  14. 36thID

    36thID Member

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    Yes I did start the last one.... But I changed my name because of it ! LOL !

    Alias
     
  15. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Okay, Steve opened the first one. No harm, no foul.

    Who opened that one is not the issue. Who opened this one is, after the initial one had been closed, is.
     

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