What do you think of the Siege of Tobruk

Well said tomcat n africa, is not my strong point but in the areas i do have knowledge on i know british troops fought with valour as did the australians, my brother in law is an aussie and his dad fought in n guinea when he came home he was never the same but he was not alone many british troops were the same. I responded as i did (all be it i misunderstood von noobies quote) because i got the impression he was bringing in to doubt the quality and courage of british troops my dad fought in burma his brother fought at cassino and his other brother fought in n africa and burma as well as my grandad fought at gallipoli and my great uncle fought and died there! oh and my brother fought in the first gulf war so you could say von noobie touched a nerve now i have that of my chest last time i checked we were allies despite you sending us neighbours!

 

I would have to say that Brit's fought many many successful battles but they are also responsible for the most military blunders throughout history.

 

You must consider also that the British are probably the oldest nation to date which have virtually been under that same flag and therefore have been judged under that flag since its forming.

You look at France, and then Vichy France, do you consider that the Vichy Frances handling of their navy after the Fall of France under the same flag as the normal French flag or different?

Australia is still very young with very little military activities compared to England.

American also falls into the same catagory as Australia, being herself young.

Germany is old as Britian but have been under many different governments, Regimes and rules, from Monaches, to the Fasism, or even as back as the Goths, do we consider all of their Blunders the same?

 

so the us has never killed any british troops with so called friendly fire then

 

Sorry mate I forgot to go on that line of thinking.

SO with that....

Mingmin.
Who says the British have made the most military blunders? Should we start naming all the mistakes all the other countries made, oh and don't forget that if they did make the most mistakes, why did they win the war?

 

My opinion on this is that the British did good as for holding onto it. Rommel broke a rule in war. Never leave the enemy entrenched behind your lines. He would then have to split up his forces to lay siege while he moves forward. He should have concentrated everything on taking Tobruk. This would have given him a forward supply base with port facilities. He again made a recklesss decision much like forcing the cancellation of the invasion of Malta in favor of using the Luftwaffe at El Alamain. Rommel was a great tactician but a lousy strategist.

 

Your statement is BS mate, British carriers had armoured flight decks, while American ones where wooden. A Kamikazi to a wooden flight deck will put it out of action for a long time, while all the British carriers needed was for the crew to push the wreckage over the side and fill the dent with quick-drying concrete.

 

Gallipoli, Fort Ticondiroga, the fall of Singapore, are a few major examples to name a few. My larger point is that the English had to be very innovative and organized in their expansion across the world. Such success comes with a price. Because of the large size of the British Commonwealth was also very ridged in their doctrine to a fault.

 

Such is the price for power. The British ruled some of the largest sections of the world.

Some overview mistakes from other countries.

The German Battle for Britain, The German Battle for Russia, The Russian Battle for Finland, Vichy France with their fleet, the Italians Vs the British in North Africa, The German 'super' inverntions (kingtiger, jadgtiger, V rockets, even battleships to some extent).

 

Where do you think the modern rockets come from? Same as the Stealth Hunter and more planes/tanks..

 

I am in no way doubting that the Germans contributed many great weapons of today but the weapons in terms of Germany winning the war were mistakes and a waste of military and industrial power.

 

Rommel biggest error was attacking a fortified position before Italian plans/maps /blue prints of the Garrisons fortifications where made available to him,studied, and a cohesive battleplan could be made that would have exploitedweaknesses in Tobruk's defense, as it was armour/troops/fuel/munitions which where dwindled hastely trying to find a bereak through where never fully replenished and doomed any further advances by the Afrika Korp as a result...

 

My father in law was a 'Rat'!!! (18th Bde, 7th Div, 2nd AIF)

That was a standing joke in our family years ago. I was fortunate enough to spend many hours talking to him and his mates, and the general concensus was that " a good time was had by all' in Tobruk. They actually all seemed to enjoy it! It was an important challenge and they all knew it, and they were damned determined that Rommel was NOT going to get Tobruk!

Bob once said to me that "the 2 weeks of Milne Bay were FAR more intense than the 8 months of Tobruk'.

They all had a great respect for the germans, but mostly contempt for the Italians.

In 'Google Earth' you can still see the weapons pits and the tank ditch around the town.

I cannot give a reference, but somewhere in the Rommel Papers is the observation, "The Australian 9th Division was the finest infantry Division I ever faced".


I went to boarding school with the son of the CO of the 2/48th Battalion, H H 'Tack' Hammer. They were heros of the Battle of Al Elamein.



OJ


PS, One of the most critical factors in the defence was the pommie 25 pounder artillery, used as anti-tank - well done!

 

'What will it take to take Tobruk'?
A division of Australian troops to retreat.

I don't remember the exact quote but it is basically along those lines.

 

Tomcat,

What simply AMAZES me is the anti-tank ditch around the perimeter, together with the weapons pits ever 500 yards or so.

The Australians arrived in Tobruk less than a week before the 'Easter Battle', yet it was enough to stop Rommel in his first attempt.


OJ

 

If you look all through Australian Military History, they have a history of over coming much stronger forces with better weapons, training and leadership, Tobruk is a perfect example.

 

montgomery considered morsehead c/o 9th aus div,as his finest div c/o.freyberg c.o 2 n/z div,was considered montys next finest div c/o.
montgomery,after learning that he would lead the invasion of france,transfered many desert formations to england e.g.51st h/d,50th inf div.7th armd div,and many officers.he wanted the n/z div,to transfer to england as well.i dont know why the div was not tranfered,but there is imo no doubt that if australian troops were available,they would have been transfered to england as well to fight in 21 a/g.lee.