What If - Finland had been prepared for the Winter War.....

Perhaps, Cankiwi2, you could include footnotes1 To show where your story detaches from reality, and becomes fantasy. This "what if" is so extensive, and I don't think you would want to be seen misrepresenting real people's actual services. I know you've put a lot of hard work into it, and its great to see (and read), but as these are real names of real people with amazing stories of their own, blending the real and imaginary so skillfully and putting words into their mouths on this forum, might not be always well regarded.


Just a suggestion...



1: Such as this. Perhaps even explaining what actually happened, to some degree.

 

Good point. Altho there'll be a lot of footnotes. I think I may go with that approach you suggest and also try and opt for a more general explanation at the end of each post indicating where reality and the ATL diverge. Particularly as many of the divergences are minor tweaks here and there. That article by Leland Stowe for example.....just a slight change at the end and a couple of changed references to the Winter War. Other posts will be a little more major in the way of divergence. Hmmmm, he says, thinking hard......

 

Posted the australian chapters on my website. Bit short on time to cross-post here so if you're interested, here are the links. Should answer a few of the questions and discussion points raised.

• Australian Aid to Finland
  Australian Aid to Finland - Part I
• Australian Aid to Finland - Part II
• The Winter War and Australia
• The Australia-Finland Assistance Organisation

Also posted a section on the South African Boer Volunteers....

• The De La Rey Commando

And a further section on aid from France

• Aid from France

 

The numbering and highlighting in bold mine.

1. Although admittedly the situation by the summer would have been easier for the soviets - especially in the Karelian Isthmus - it still wouldn't have meant a total shift of advantage. Especially to the North of Lake Laatokka (Ladoga) the soviet armoured troops would still have been road (narrow and scarce) bound, because the forests and swamps would have still prevented their use. The soviets would have still been lost in the forests without the compasses, maps nor the skills. Surely though the situation would have been more difficult for the Finns.

2. Actually Chuchill did not really try to support Finland - although that's what he advertised - but to occupy the Swedish iron ore mines in Northern Sweden. No more than a brigade was meant to Finland - and to stay only in the North, presumably to prevent the soviets advancing towards the mines. The military value of such help would have been next to nothing. All the other British troops were reserved for occupying the Swedish mines.

The Swedish iron ore was crucial for the German war effort and both parties knew that. The British and French invation plans forced Germany to occupy Denmark and Norway - at the last moment, as it turned out to be.

3. Although Finland would have badly needed the Swedish help and official co-operation the situation was not easy for Sweden either. She - as so many other countries - found herself in the middle of the conflicting interests of great powers in war. She knew, that that the Anglo-French "Finnish support" expedition would have actually meant the occupation of her strategic assets - which Germany could not have tolerated. That would have meant a war on Swedish territory - which she needed to avoid at all costs - including Finland...

 

1. In this scenario, by the end of Spring the Finnish forces are on the outskirts of Leningrad on the Isthmus, well-equipped with anti-tank guns and artillery, and have destroyed the KV1 works in Leningrad, and also have command of the air over the frontlines. See

• The Ramifications of the 1931 Military Review for the Ilmavoimat
• The 1933 Ilmavoimat Procurement Program
• The 1934 Ilmavoimat Procurement Program
• The 1935 Ilmavoimat Procurement Program
• The 1936 Ilmavoimat Procurement Program
• The 1937 Ilmavoimat / Merivoimat Air Arm Procurement Program
• The last of the 1937 Fighter purchases – the Fokker G.1 Fighter
• 1937 - A Medium Bomber for the Ilmavoimat
• The 1938 Ilmavoimat and Merivoimat Air Arm Procurement Program

There's more to come on the air side of things, this is just what's posted on my site so far. Suffice it to say, in this scenario the Ilmavoimat is a bit better equipped.....

By late Spring, the rest of the frontline stretches along the Syvari from Lake Ladoga to Lake Onega, and from there to the White Sea. Murmansk has fallen to the Finns. The "Three Isthmus" Defence Line is a reality. The Finnish Army is larger, and received more in the way of aid. See one example (again, more to come)

• Aid from France

2. Churchill and Finland: just so. Most of the British troops were earmarked for Sweden and the iron ore mines. Churchill would have succeeded in bringing in Sweden on the side of the Germans. Even the Finns realised this. In this scenario, the same applies. Norway permits cargo shipments thru Narvik and Lyngenfjord but no troops. The single exception is the ANZAC Battalion, which is not allowed into Sweden and must travel north to Lyngenfjord and thence thru to Finland on the new Finnish roadlink. See

• The Lyngenfjord Highway

3. Agreed. No change there in this scenario, Sweden is Sweden, altho in this case with a rather larger, stronger and more successful Finnish military, Sweden is a little more helpful.

 

Posted thison Toivo Kaario and the use of hovercraft in the Winter War
http://www.alternativefinland.com/toivo-kaario-hovercraft/

And also, the Finnish Air Force in the first half of the 1920's
http://www.alternativefinland.com/suomen-ilmavoimat-finnish-air-force-brief-history-first-half-1920s/

 

Toivo Kaario and Hovercraft – an Interesting Experiment


Toivo Kaario was an engineer specialising in aircraft engines who worked at the State Aircraft Engine Factory. It would be he who was responsible for a piece of military technology that would give the Finnish Navy a major advantage in naval combat in both the Winter War and in the rest of WW2 in the Baltic – the combat hovercraft. The reminder of this Chapter is the history of Toivo Kaario and hovercraft in Finland prior to and including the Winter War.

One of the inspectors of the Valtion Lentokonetehdas (VL) airplane engine workshop in the late 1930’s was Finnish engineer Toivo Jujani Kaario (b. Helsinki, 7 June 1912, d.Tampere, 20 October 1970). Kaario’s father, Hugo Johannes Kaario was also an Engineer, his mother was Iida Maria Appelqvist. The family had four children of whom Toivo was the oldest. Kaario took his matriculation examination in 1930 and completed his military service at the Santahamina factory over 1930-1931. Kaario had an early interest in aviation and at 14 years old he built his first powered aircraft model and had already during his school years, decided to become an airplane designer. With his glider flying experience, Kaario wished to become a Pilot in the Ilmavoimat and he sat Air Force entrance exams, but failed to qualify for pilot training due to poor vision. However, he was selected during his Conscript Service for Reserve Officer training, which he completed successfully, being promoted to lieutenant in July 1931.

In school, his interest in aviation had resulted in his being befriended by Ilmari Jäämaa, editor and writer for a number of different popular science type magazines. In 1929, Kaario had, with classmate Ensio Nuorteva, used a light car to tow one-man gliders. During his Conscript Service, Kaario also became acquainted with a motor transport that operated over the winter sea ice between Santahamina and the inner city of Helsinki. In 1932 Kaario started mechanical engineering courses at the Helsinki University of Technology, graduating as anengineer in December 1936. Following graduation, Kaario was immediately hired by the new and expanding State Aircraft Engine Factory as a service engineer. He was however, together with two other newly hired engineers immediately sent to Germany to study aero-engine design at the Charlottenburg University of Technology in Berlin where he remained for 1937 and 1938. The intention was that these three engineers would then taking leading roles in the new aircraft engine plant in Finland (where currently the bulk of the Engineers were foreigners hired to assist with establishing the factory and train Finnish employees).

At the start of 1939, Kaario returned to Finland together with his two colleagus and was transferred to the State Aircraft Engine’s new Linnavuori engine plant at Siuro where he was assigned to the aero-engine testing facility. Back in Finland, he now had the time to indulge into what had been a long-time hobby. In 1932, Kaario had come up with the idea of developing a vehicle utilising maavaikutusta (ground effect) and he had actually designed a gound-effect vehicle and built a small working model which worked by generating an air-cushion to support it. Over the winter of 1934-1935 Kaario went on to build the first Pintaliitäjäprototyypin (Pintaliitäjä=Surface Soarer, thus “Prototype Surface Soarer”), which was tested on the ice in January 1935.

​

Pintaliitäjäprototyypin – the Surface Soarer Prototype

Based on experience testing the first prototype, Kaario went on to build a second prototype, Patosiipi No. 2 which he tested over 1935-1936. Kaario began to develop his theories concerning the use of ground-effect and built several models for further tests. As the ground-effect wing of Kaario’s early designs had an almost non-existent ability to block the loss of air being blown down by the propellor, the Patosiipi No. 2 was able to lift, but the ground-effect lift was weak. Kaario continued to experiment through 1936, building a further full-sized prototype powered by a 2-cylinder Harley-Davidson motorcycle engine but this time with a ”skirt” underneath which added to the lift by trapping the high pressure air that had been forced. This device was first tested on land and then on the water and was found to be slower but with more lift over an uneven surface. It was at this point that Kaario had discontinued his research and trials as he had graduated and is spare time in Berlin was largely taken up with his studies. However, he did have some free time….

And Kaario used this time well, bouncing his ideas around with German aviation experts, draw new designs, build and test models and come up with further improvements. In the late 1930’s when Kaario was in Germany, German aviation had been released from the shackles imposed after the defeat of WW1, the Luftwaffe was expanding rapidly, German aviation designers were trying out a variety of new ideas and concepts, some of them out there on the bleeding edge of technology, many of them merely leading edge, and Kaario found himself in the thick of this. His interests led him to make many contacts, and on his return to Finland in January 1939, Kaario had accumulated two years worth of ideas, thoughts and interaction with German aviation experts as well as having constructed and trialed a large number of models.

Almost all his spare time was taken up with building and testing models and almost immediately he also began work on Patosiipi No. 8 which had substantially improved lift and air flow properties. At this stage a number of fellow workers at the State Aircraft Factory had become interested in his project and were providing voluntary assistance. Work on Patosiipi No. 8 progressed rapidly utilizing a 53hp Porsche engine and before the snow was off the ground in the Spring of 1939, the device was first tested on land beside the Härmälä airport and then on the water at Siuro. The main problems experienced were vibration when driving on uneven ground and the inability of the prototype to drive over obstacles more than 20-cm-high.

Sometimes serendipity plays its part in events. It was the testing beside Härmälä airport that inadvertently led to far more rapid progress than Kaario had ever in his wildest dreams anticipated. Major-General Somersalo had been attending a meeting at the Airport which had run late. On leaving, he happened to see the group working on Patosiipi No. 8 and stopped to watch as a test run was carried out, with the device reaching some 80kph while carrying two people. Intrigued, Somersalo had walked over to the group and started asking questions. At midnight, the entire group and Somersalo were still at the Airport with Kaario running an impromptu design review.

Rough Sketch of Infantry Assault Pintaliitäjä-Craft as proposed by Kaario in Spring 1939

Two days later, Kaario and his team of volunteers found themselves doing a presentation to Somersalo, the head of the Merivoimat, Väinö Valve, the commanding officer of the Marine Jaegers, a small group of technical Officers and a couple of rather tough looking individuals in nondescript Armiejan uniforms without any rank or branch identification. Kaario seized the opportunity and over a single day, he outlined the concepts and ideas he had put together while in Germany, starting with plans for a 100 ton Pintaliitäjä intended for transport on the Baltic Sea and with a cruising speed of 100-120kph, then moving on to concepts for a Fast Torpedo and Minelayer Pintaliitäjä and a High Speed Infantry Assault Pintaliitäjä. The ”ground effect” concept was explained in detail, and then demonstrated using Patosiipi No. 8, and Kaario’s ideas on how this could better be utilised were also explained (Kaario was as far as is known the first to conceive of using a ”skirt” to trap air, rather than simply using ground-effect).

​

Line Drawing of Pintaliitäjä-Craft proposed by Kaario in Spring 1939

The next morning he was summoned to the office of the Factory Manager to find, not the Manager but the Commanding Officer of the Merivoimat, Väinö Valve. After a short and to the point discussion, Valve asked Kaario if he would take on a position as leader of a design and development team tasked with turning his Pintaliitäjä concept into a viable military weapon within a 12 month period. Adequate resourcing would be provided and the project would have the full backing of the Merivoimat. Kaario agreed.

Almost immediately, a team was assembled and design work began for a full-size protoype of the Fast Torpedo and Minelayer Pintaliitäjä. The first prototype, maintaining the numbering sequence Kaario had initiated in 1932, was designated P-9, and had a very simple design which consisted of an elongated oblong shape made up two wooden catamaran hulls powered by three aircraft engines using what we would now call a chamber configuration design.

Two Mercury aero-engines were installed horizontally in the funnel-shaped wells on the platform which connected the catamaran hulls together. The third engine, also a Mercury, was placed in the aft part of the craft on a removable four-strut pylon. An air cushion was produced by the horizontally-placed engines. P-9 was designed and built over a one week period and was immediately trialed, achieving a speed of 70 knots, or about 130 kilometers per hour.




P-9 during initial trials in Spring 1939

Photo, Left: P-9 during initial trials in Spring 1939- the Red Star and ”CCCP” were painted on the sides to confuse any Observers, as it was known that the USSR was conducting trials on a similar type of craft designed by a Soviet engineer, Vladimir Levkov. It was hoped that any sightings of the Finnish craft would be confused with the Soviet Navy craft that had been observed carrying out trials.

The tests lasted for 10 days and at that time nobody other than Kaario and his small team of volunteers had any experience in operating such vehicles. Over-water runs were performed using all three engines running simultaneously, with the trials conducted in both calm and windy weather, crosswind and downwind, over flat shore and over swampy areas covered with sedge. Once the hovercrafts engines failed and the vehicle landed in a deep swamp. However, as soon as the engines were restarted, the boat ascended and recovered itself from the swamp. The maximum speed in the first runs was approximately 60 knots but in later tests 70 knots was easily reached and according to the P-9 test commander, a Merivoimat Fast Torpedo Boat commander, this was not on full power.

​

Initial design sketch of P-10

A second prototype, with design modifications incorporated even while testing of P9 was going on, was built and then testing in parallel with P9 with even more satisfactory results. Trial results of these 2 prototype hovercraft were acknowledged as very satisfactory. It was indicated in the report that the “principle for surface-soarer vehicles has been proven feasible.” This report was approved by the Commander of the Merivoimat, who directed that the Naval Construction Plan should encompass the production of two types of such skimming boats: one to be used as a fast attack torpedo craft and the other as a marine landing craft. Emergency Funds were allocated and the project was given the highest priority with a direction that three prototypes of each were to be constructed and completed by the end of summer 1939. This was a highly aggressive timetable, but one that the team worked day and night to meet.

​

P-10 at rest during a break in her initial trials P-10 had been designed over a four week period and a prototype was put together by mid-July 1939.

Building on knowledge gained from the P-10, a full-metal (duralumin) fast torpedo and infantry assault craft, designated P-11 was built in late summer 1939. The craft had a streamlined shape, in the midship area there was a streamlined pilot house/cabin for the pilot, mechanic and radio operator followed by a troop compartment, two turret (aircraft turrets were used, as had been done with some of the patrol torpedo boats) machine-gun mounts were installed on either side and slightly aft of the pilot-house and there was an aft mounted rear-facing 20mm cannon for AA protection. Directional control was provided by two large tail fins. Torpedo attachment points were arranged on either side of the troop compartment and the craft could also carry eight depth charges. The P-11 could surmount sandy strips, bogs, ice and rough seas, but was unstable during high speed turns.

Photo, Left: Performance Trials of P-10 on the Gulf of Finland, Summer of 1939. ”CCCP” was painted on the sides to confuse any Observers, as it was known that the USSR was conducting trials on a similar type of craft designed by a Soviet engineer, Vladimir Levkov. It was hoped that any sightings of the Finnish craft would be confused with the Soviet Navy craft that had been observed carrying out trials.

Regardless, a decision was made that it should go into production and by November 1939, the Merivoimat had 21 experimental air-cushion dual-purpose P-11 Pintaliitäjä-boats (High-Speed Torpedo Boats and Assault Craft) in service. The P-11 had a tonnage of 8.6-11.3 t, a crew of 7 men, a length of 24m, a width of 5.4 m, was armed with 2×12.7mm machineguns and 1x20mm Hispano-Suiza 20mm Cannon, carried two torpedoes, was powered by 2x1000hp Hispano-Suiza engines and could reach a top speed of 80 knots (approx 160kph).


P-10 in the Suomenlinna Workshop

As the Winter War broke out, Kaario’s team were urgently working on manufacturing additional P-11 Pintaliitäjä-boats and repairing these that had been damaged. Kaario himself had begun working on an improved P-11 design and, as this changed radically, it became the design for a larger and longer-ranged P-12 Pintaliitäjä-boat. With P-11’s having been built and actually being used in combat operations during the early weeks of the Winter War, Kaario realised the craft had some serious shortcomings. Both good and discouraging reports were coming from the Merivoimat. The discouraging reports stated that pressure under the Pintaliitäjä-boats was low due to air escape through the vessels open ends, which reduced the load-carrying capacity; spray produced by the powerful engines limited visibility, the Pintaliitäjä-boats operations were limited to sea state 4 or less and the impact of the Pintaliitäjä-boats with waves changed the settings of the louvres and occasionally damaged them.

The engines also had problems with stalling when water penetrated into the exposed carburetors, and since the engines were positioned horizontally, they were not sufficiently air-cooled and would often overheat if run for long periods of time. Despite this, the Pintaliitäjä-boats had proved highly effective in combat due largely to their unbelievably high speeds.
Kaario and his design team worked 16 hour days (and often longer) working to rectify these problems, often sleeping under their desks or in backrooms in the ex-VL Suomenlinna factory building that was now their base.

In the end, the ability of the P-11 design to cope with high speed turns seemed to improve with a substantial widening of the boat, first to 10m and then to 15m. As for lift, Kaario initially experimented with the building of a working model that demonstrated that by pumping air into a narrow tunnel around the perimeter of the underneath of the craft, it would flow towards the center, creating a more effective air cushion. This peripheral jet would allow the air pressure to build enough to equal the weight of the craft and, since the air would be trapped, the pressure would elevate the craft off the surface upon which it traveled.

By contrast, the P-11 utilised ground-effect, basically provided lift by using a propellor fan to force air from the deck down into the chamber between the two catamaran sides, which meant that air had to be continually pumped down to replace the air that escaped. After successfully trialing a model demonstrating that his new “air cushion” theory worked, Kaario redesigned P-12 incorporating a number of other modifications.

The P-12 design was significantly larger than the P-11 (A width of 15m vs 5.4m for the P11, a length of 45m vs 24m) and was powered by 4 x 1000hp Hispano-Suiza engines. The top speed of 80 knots (approx 160kph) was the same as for the P-11 but the P-12 was significantly more sea-worthy, much more maneuverable at high speeds and carried significantly greater armament – 4 torpedoes, 4 gun turrets, each with twin 12.7mm machineguns, 2 x twin-20mm cannon (one fore, one aft) and a larger crew. Trials of the P-12 were carried out through the Winter months and by Spring of 1940, half a dozen had been built.

The first combat action the P-12 model saw was at the Battle of Bornholm, where the Finnish navy fought of a task force of the German Navy sent to seize or destroy a large convoy of Finnish cargo ships (Hitler had, at Molotov and Stalin’s request), sent the German Navy to seize or destroy the Finnish ships in order to prevent large quantities of military supplies reaching Finland by sea). The story of “The Helsinki Convoy” is related in another chapter, suffice it to say that the P-12′s swooping in at 80 knots to launch a spread of torpedoes were just one surprise among many that the German Navy would encounter at this famous naval engagement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWCR01i_IlQ
Merivoimat Military Hovercraft High Speed Torpedo Boat P 10 Trials

OTL Note: Historically, Toivo Juhani Kaario was a Finnish engineer and inventor, who in the 1930′s started working on prototypes of air cushion vehicles. Kaario is considered to have designed and built the first functional ground effect vehicles, but his invention did not receive sufficient funds for further development. Also, in this ATL I have shifted some of the dates by a couple of years to fit the scenario. But all else aside, Kaario WAS the first in the world to design and build functional ground effect vehicles and the Soviet engineer, Vladimir Levkov, followed his efforts as closely as was possible before building his pre-WW2 combat hovercraft for the USSR…… Toivo Kaario died in October 1970 at the age of 58 after a short illness. He is buried at Tampere in the Kalevankangas Cemetery. For my source on Toivo Kaario, refer to http://tutkielmat.uta.fi/pdf/gradu01659.pdf.
Other sources I used were articles on the Russian engineer Levkov (photos of P-9, P-10 and P-11 are actually of Levkov’s hovercraft, which predate WW2.) The videoclip is also of one of Levkov’s hovercraft. Most of the info on Levkov that I put together was from a Russian-language website (http://milparade.udm.ru/32/062.htm. It was in researching Levkov that I came across the references to Kaario (http://forum.burek.com/hovercraft-t251678.wap2.html) which led me to find out a bit more about him. Turns out he was perfect for the role in my alternative history.

 

Just added a new page on Finnish Gliders and Assault Transport aircraft

http://www.alternativefinland.com/programs-gliders-assault-transport-aircraft/

 

Photos are mostly public domain. Where not, they have been reused with permission. Finnish photos in particular are largely from finnish museums and reuse is permitted as long as its not commercial.

Excerpts are often from wikipedia or again, from online material or books that are in the public domain. Some of the "books", I hasten to add, are pure inventions on my part.

 

American and British wraths were meaningful to Finland because they support the SU against Germany which was the most meaningful co-belligerent at the time. So either Finland venture the international relation landscape very carefully or look for more help internationally. Romania and especially the Baltic States held grudges against the SU, not to mention Japan in the east and Persia in the middle. Estonia and Finland collaborated in national defense against the SU, according to English Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish%E2%80%93Estonian_defence_cooperation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ambassadors_of_Japan_to_Finland

Regardless of the Winter, Continuation or Lapland War, Finland needed more foreign help, say manpower from the Baltic and the SU due to kinships, weaponry from Japan, and political and diplomatic help from Romania. Romania harbored between two great opposing powers of Germany and the SU and also in territorial conflict with the SU in Bessarbia, like that with Finland in Karelia and isthumuses.

 

I think you are ignoring the situation as it was in 1939. At the time of the Winter War, The only one that could be said to be supporting the Soviet Union was Germany, not the French or the British. All the states surrounding those two countries were in an extremely precarious situation. You need to evaluate the situation as it was then, not as it became just a few years later (1943).

The Finns sought help internationally, feverously indeed, they had been promised help prior to the invasion by the Soviets in 1939. Yet it had more than mild difficulties actually getting any help.

How are the Japanese going to deliver arms to Finland, when the Western powers were themselves almost incapable of doing so?

 

Thank you. I agree with your assessment that evaluation as it was then; One underlying string was that European powers in France or Britian were reluctant to help while Germany helped because of her geographic location as a power just west of the SU. Given that, Finland needed to look for nation(s) in power that had been in dispute based on geographic location. Japan had indeed been one, at least since the Russo-Japanese war; the Russo-Japanese alliance of ww1 was one of convenience.

During the East Karelian uprising and Soviet–Finnish conflict of 1921–22, some Finnish officers were German trained and supplied with Japanese weaponry.

I did not know how the shipment went into Mr. Kaila but the shipment itself showed probable Japanese weaponry support to Finland; In a larger scale, small numbers of Japanese Type 89 I-Go or Type 95 Ha-Go or one Type 97 Chi-Ha prototype fought against t26, t28, bt2, bt5 and kv1. Then Japanese tank developers would have known their tanks were incapable in the long run to defeat the SU tanks, thus maybe paving the way for faster developing Type 3 Chi-Nu or a tank destroyer similar to Hetzer when the Pacific War began.

 

Knightdepaix: thank you for your interest towards Finnish history. However you, not surprisingly, are a bit unfamiliar with the local conditions then.

Few clarifications:

- the situation before, during and straight after the Winter War was very different compered to the situation, say late 1940 onwards - and very different again during the Lapland war autumn 1944 onwards
- similarly the situation in early 1920's was different again

- most of the Finnish lower and middle officers were German trained in the 1920's, since they were members of the famous (at least in Finland) of the Königlich Preussisches Jägerbataillon Nr. 27. In the WW2 they practically lead the Finnish army as commanders of regiments, divisions, corps etc.
http://www.alternativefinland.com/the-jaakarit-and-their-place-in-the-finnish-army/

- 500 rifles is not any significant number, not even in the early 1920's
- at the time of the Winter War it is very difficult to see how any number of Japanese weaponry could have reached Finland - especially early enough

 

How useful would a Jeep in Finnish swampy landscape ? Besides the gallant Finnish combat, could in the bigger picture more utility machines -- trucks, transport aircrafts and whatsnot -- be helpful to Finnish peoples, not just military.

Secondly, we knew Germany and the US developed synthetic oils. Could Finland taking advantage of its more or less political neutrality to adopt these technology to develop synthetic oils from wood fuel and bryophyte ? Essentially anaerobic pyrolysis of wooddust, lichen and moss to hydrocarbon, water and carbon oxides. Then synthetic oil technology turns these ingredients into synthetic oils, water and carbon dioxide, Wood processing industries has been quite traditional already, would developing an arm of synthetic oil manufacturing be feasible ?