What if Herr Speer...

Interesting stuff there, Kai.
This theory also brings up an interesting idea- according to this source, Speer actually stifled armamanet advances. This theory says that he took the manufacturing out of the hands of the military. Yet it was the military who requested many of the technical advancements that characterized some of the more impressive german weapons. Thus wouldn't Speer have lessened the chances for improvements in design?
From this, one can also wonder- if Speer HAD NOT been in charge, might we have seen more "wonder weapons" and more of some of the reich's more outlandish projects?

 

Hi CradyD!

I am not sure about this but I think Speer was a fan of Peenemunde (?). Anyway, I am quite sure that your thinking is correct and there must have been several secret weapons that weren´t build due to his methods. Time to check all the sites for German developments for weird weapons and discuss how they would have changed the war??

 

The exact circumstances of Todt's death remain unclear.

From all I know, the Demo charge in his Heinkel He 111 blew off, causing theplane to crash.

AFAIK, all Heinkels had such a self-demotition- charge to blow up the plane before the enemy gets a hand on it.

There was a investigation, but I have no idea if the report survived the war.

Cheers,

 

Thanks for that Andy. Does help onwards with the story.I´ll check the Speer book today, and inform on the results soon.

 

Those are exactly the good things Speer did: Put the production on the hands of the businness men, those who knew, supported scientific research and ot rid of bureaucracy. That came to the immense raise of war production in 1944 and the appearing of new weapons.

 

I got my hand on the Speer book and as it was something I bought for the future with Speer´s name on it, it appears it is not "inside the Reich". But it is good , by Gitta Sereny, Albert Speer: His battle with truth and includes alot of Speer´s ideas from his original book as well as loads of quotes from his comrades etc. The book is from 1995.

I go for the Todt aeroplane accident as it puzzles me.Unfortunately Hitler prevented the investigation after the first check ups so we will never find the truth, but here´s more that was in the book:

Todt actually seems to have told Hitler during the winter that if victory could not be received before the second winter in Russia, Germany would lose the war.Speer met Todt on 27th of December 1941 at Todt´s house, Speer says Todt seemed quite depressed at the time.Todt had just returned from Russia from inspection of the front, and was very upset by the army´s losses and overall situation.Todt says that the Russians may be primitive, but both physically and mentally very tough. Speer tried to make Todt feel better. "our boys are strong " he said. Todt shaked his head in a manner usual to him,and said" You are young.You hold onto your illusions all the time."

The chapter on Todt´s accident is some 30 pages long so for now I just give the main ideas.

Speer had been to Dnepropetrovsk for six days until 6th February for inspection of the front.He had left on a train but 3 meters of snow forced the train to go back.Sepp Dietrich´s pilot offered a place on his plane to Rastenburg, and as Russians were some 10 kms from the airfield it was easy for him to accept this possibility.
Todt was at Rastenburg and offered a place on his plane for Berlin the next morning. Speer accepted this. Hitler asked Speer to come and speak with him at 1 am (!). They talked over Speer´s impression on the situation in Russia for two hours. After 3 am Speer goes to bed but before this he sent a message to Todt´s pilot that he will not join the flight for he wants to have a good night´s sleep.Some two minutes past 8 am. he is woken up and finds out that Todt is dead.

It seems Hitler ordered search for the accident but soon ordered it stopped as well.More weird things:The plane was meant in the first place for Hugo Sperrle, and Todt took the plane as his was under repair.The plane had a security flight in the morning before Todt entered it, and security checks ( Reich´s air ministry, SS ?) were made beforehand to exclude sabotage.
The plane was He 111 constructed for passenger flights.There was a self destruction bomb between the two pilots according to official reports, then again Todt´s 18-year old son who was a fighter pilot is referred to saying that there was no such bomb (?).According to Nicolaus von Below, who was Hitler´s adjutant ( air force ), Todt at first refused to take the plane by saying that "Hitler´s invitation did not concern him" (Hitler wanted his special guests to use two engine transport from Rastenburg ) but Hitler changed his mind on this after dinner. Von Below does not mention anything on self destruction mechanism but that the plane exploded after reaching height of 20 meters above the ground.

Speer himself wondered after having read the report on self destruction mechanism " how and by whom was it activated ?". On Hitler on Todt´s death: " He reacted to this with such peace like a man who must understand that this kind of things happen..".

This one´s Swedish so I must translate it twice so I´ll give the short story first.

 

Really, really interesting, Kai! I enjoyed reading it. It sounded like an Agatha Christie's novel...

 

Thanx Friedrich, and it´s great to see you´re well again!

These facts are summarized as making it at least possible that Todt´s death was sabotage:

1. The mystical planecrash
2. Speer not getting on the plane at the last moment ( change of plans )
3.Speer´s long discussion during the night with Hitler
4.The fast appointment of Speer to replace Todt
5. Hitler ending the accident check up soon

Speer was also asked if he thought Hitler had eliminated Todt or knew who did it.Speer would not answer, juts shrugged his shoulders ( hope this is the right term ).As well we´ll never know if Hitler told Speer to miss the plane during the discussion at night.

Yes, Agatha at its best!

 

Vielen Dank! But well in which aspect?

 

Ok, I just thought you had a flu or something yesterday but it was the usual "war fever " we all in this forum have...
( Luftwaffe 1946 message )

 

Are you saying I went nuts yesterday in that topic? I don't think I did... but if I did, it was about the Luftwaffe, what could you expect?

 

Uhm, this is a bit in contradiction to Hitler's reaction as described in the Goebbels diaries of Feb.9 ,1942 and Feb. 13, 1942.

According to Goebbels diary notices (who are, contraty to Speers memoirs written down at her time and without post-war agenda), Hitler was deeply shocked by Todt's accident and Hitler mentioned to Goebbels what a great loss his death was to him.

And even in later conversations, Hitler didn't say anything bad on Todt (diary entry Dec.2, 1944).

Any details that the investigation was really stopped by Hitler? To my knowledge it was carried out without substantial results.

Cheers,

 

I´ll come later on with the whole story as I am reading and translating it at the moment.

I think that this was just one of Hitler´s reactions to the situation, as I am quite sure myself that Todt´s death did hurt Hitler.Even the speech at the funeral was long and emotional.Anyway, this is how Speer described Hitler´s emotions later in the 1960´s.So it is him not me to say so, and as it is Mr Speer I tend to believe it whether or not said 20 years after the war.

What Hitler said to Goebbels I believe. One might see things differently like Speer in the 1960´s. After all, Speer has been blamed for naive belief in Hitler during the war, and serving the sentence fully might have given him new ideas, of maybe Hitler taking advantage of him and the German people for his own good? Anyway, I´ll come back tot that.

On the investigation part I´ll report later. But if you Andy have got other information you´re welcome to bring it here. This is just another book I have and like we have seen many truths have changed even recently. I don´t believe we´would find Hitler making a murder here as Hitler could have just sacked him, but it is an interesting bit to study.

 

Ok, after having read and translated the stuff I am ready to offer the best bits to you guys. I hope you like it.

Gitta Sereny, the author of the book, as previously mentioned above, saw speer in Nurnberg in 1946 during the hearings. She never imagined that she would later on get in contact with him, sending letters, speaking on the phone, even spend time at Speer´s house and interviw him in 1978.As well she met Hilde Schramm, Albert´s daughter, Annemarie Kempf, his private secretary, and Fritz Wolter´s, the son of Speer´s,best frind Rudolf Wolters.
The book has more views on things and the author discusses how Speer´s view changes with time, as Speer´s comments are compared from Nurnberg 1946 to " Inside the Reich" and later on the book on "Spandau years", and last on his comments in 1978 during personal interview. I can imagine the work process on that and how much she had to leave untold. In one place the author mentions that Speer had more private memories in safe, which will only be let out as the third generation of Speer´s children are adults. Should not be long now.

First of all, Speer was an admirer of Todt. The book mentions instances where Speer possibly could have taken his place;during the spring 1939 Hitler talks with Speer on that he has thought of giving Todt´s job to Speer´s construction department, in case something happens to Todt. (This should be in Inside the third Reich as well). During the summer of 1940, Hitler tells Speer that Todt is getting on his nerves and Speer should take his place for building the West Wall. Speer talked Hitler to other thoughts and Todt kept his place.
Anyway, these are also the things why Speer was not at all surpised as Hitler named Speer Todt´s follower. Actually Speer sort of expected it, he claims.

Back to the accident:
After Speer had landed to Rastenburg from the eastern front, he went to the officer mess.Dr Todt has dinner with him. Later on Dr Todt gives his report to Hitler, and after that Todt and Speer meet again. Todt offers a lift on his plane early next morning.Speer agrees.

At 1 o´clock am Hitler wishes to talk to Speer and calls for him.
There are discrepancies here as Speer in Nurnberg claimed they talked on building projects, and in "Inside the Reich" they talked about the situation in Russia. Speer told Hitler of the German soldier in the front, how they live, what they sing.Hitler seemed interested. Speer even gave him some notes that had song words on them.Hitler read the song words and was totally quiet. ( After was Speer heard that Hitler sent those responsible for printing the songs to military court.MY THOUGHTS: probably were sentenced to death for treason.)

After returning to bed at 3 am, and leaving a message to Todt´s pilot he was not going, Speer went to bed happier than for a long time.He wondered in his mind that maybe he had made an impression on Hitler with his information. Later on Speer himself said he was quite naive by then..

I gave much of the book´s evidence on the accident above so I won´t go through it again. I just want to correct that I had misunderstood this, the Reich´s air security and SS checked the plane accident, not the plane before its flight like I said. The plane did have a security flight earlier that morning.

There are several views on what happened but I guess we just have to try to be objective about them.

The author looks at it by Speer´s actions and words: In Nurnberg Speer had trouble how to present the accident. On "Nurnberg case 1946" there is nothing. On "Spandau case" he says that immediately after the accident Hitler gave an order to Field Marschal Milch and state secretary to investigate the accident. Hitler had his suspicions. They came to the result that sabotage could be ruled out. In 1967 Speer tells also on the accident that " Hitler gave an order soon after the accident that the investigation stopped without it being solved ever..."

the author presents also Air Ministry´s official report:Investigation came to the result that the plane had exploded 20 meters above the ground during take off. ( That´s all??)

Speer in 1968: Hitler mind was peaceful ( Stoan ) after Todt´s death like a man who must understand that this kind of things can happen...
Also: Hitler thought that this was made by enemy secret service.
Speer also recalls that Hitler later on became irritated by specualtion son Todt´s death. If somebody mentioned it or tried to bring it up Hitler would say " I don´t want to hear about it! End of discussion!"

According to the book Todt´s 18-year old son PROVED that the plane built for passenger flight did not have a self destruction mechanism (?)

30 years later from the accident Nicolaus von Below tells his story:

After accident I went to see the plane.It was a burned wreck.All aboard were dead.
After Hitler had got up, I informed him of the accident.He was surprised and quiet for a long time.Hitler asked me for the cause, I could not explain.

Von Below does not mention a thing on self destruction mechanism here in this book.

Speer´s best friend kept contact with Speer in the prison, and on 16.3.1953 he found something. On Jurgen Thorwald´s book "Die ungeklärte fälle " is also on Todt´s death. The previous night Todt had told Hitler that war in the east is impossible and would end in catastrophe, especially after the war declaration against the US.

Thorwald saw possible persons guilty for the accident:
1. Hitler
2.Goering
3.Speer

Also something that might be seen as a sign: In "Inside the Reich" Speer tells that Dr Todt had kept only small sums of money in his private safe at the office for a longer time.In case somthing happens... (If that should prove anything ?? )

On 7.1.1978 F Wolters visits Todt´s widow. Todt´s daughter opens the door and during the conversation says that "Speer is capable of anything" referring to that Speer could have caused the accident. That was her opinion.

Xaver Dorsch of org Todt, worked under Todt and Speer. Somehow never got on well with Speer.

"Hitler did not want Todt´s death"
Dorsch refuses the hypothesis of self destruction mechanism.This small plane had not one. Yet he does not believe in sabotage either.



Ok.That´s it.Can´t say anything for sure but lots of weird details. If Speer had admitted that Hitler asked him not to go during the night on the plane that would make me think that Hitler knew.That is the key answer. Maybe the answer is to come on Speer´s later documents.

 

In case somebody wants to read the speech Hitler gave on Todt´s funeral here´s the site:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1942/420212a.html

 

Just for interest I found what Speer told in Nurnberg 1946 about how many workers he had.
" I can tell you how many workers I had. When I took over the ministry in Feb 1942 I had 2.6 million workers. In Spring 1943 Dönitz gave me the Marine industry´s workers and I had 3.2 million workers. In September 1943 Reichsminister Funk´s workers were given to me, and I had 12 million workers. 1st August 1944 Goering gave his workers to me and altogether I had 14 million workers."

That´s the way his power increased and might as well explain the growing numbers of production somewhat.As the working men were put under one man´s power ( simplify ) their working process probably was used better as well by Speer´s standards.

 

Speer and peenemunde:

Albert Speer, as Minister of Armaments, was a strong supporter of the rocket programme headed by Wernher von Braun.

Ever since the winter of 1939, I had been closely associated with the Peenemunde development centre, although at first all I was doing was meeting its construction needs. I liked mingling with the circle of non-political young scientists and inventors headed by Werner von Braun - twenty-seven years old, purposeful, a man realistically at home in the future. It was extraordinary that so young and untried a team should be allowed to pursue a project costing hundreds of millions of marks and whose realization seemed far away.

My sympathy stood them in good stead when in the late fall of 1939 Hitler crossed the rocket project off his list of urgent undertakings and thus automatically cut off its labour and materials. By tacit agreement with the Army Ordnance Office, I continued to build the Peenemunde installations without its aaproval - a liberty that probably no one but myself could have taken

From

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERspeer.htm

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Hitler was not originally too impressed with the V-2, but Albert Speer convinced him to keep the program alive. Even so, the fluctuating levels of priorities for raw materials -- particularly for actual production facilities -- continued to hamstring the project.
As the A-4 and Fi 103 programs finally evolved from promising technologies to deployable weapons, the struggle for control over them intensified. This led to such bizarre events as the brief arrest of Wernher von Braun by the SS for allegedly spending too much time working out equations for rocket designs that would reach the moon rather than London.
Churchill's personal scientific advisor, Lord Cherwell, insisted that such unmanned flying weapons were preposterous and amounted to no more than an enemy disinformation campaign.
the authors claim the V-weapons achieved much more than generally realized, citing the diversion of Allied air missions, retention of AA manpower in England, naval steel taken for construction of civilian bomb shelters, direct affects on Allied ground strategy, damage to infrastructure, and serious reduction in the capacity of Antwerp as a port and supply center. They also view the German New Year's air assault of 1945, Operation Bodenplatte, as explicable only in terms of an attempt to destroy the airfields and aircraft with which the British carried out missions against launchpads in the Netherlands and Germany

HMMM INTERESTING

From
http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/981011.shtml

--------

2) Albert Speer, Germany's Minister of Armaments in the Second World War, was a strong supporter of the rocket programme headed by Wernher von Braun.

Ever since the winter of 1939, I had been closely associated with the Peenemunde development centre, although at first all I was doing was meeting its construction needs. I liked mingling with the circle of non-political young scientists and inventors headed by Werner von Braun - twenty-seven years old, purposeful, a man realistically at home in the future. It was extraordinary that so young and untried a team should be allowed to pursue a project costing hundreds of millions of marks and whose realization seemed far away.

My sympathy stood them in good stead when in the late fall of 1939 Hitler crossed the rocket project off his list of urgent undertakings and thus automatically cut off its labour and materials. By tacit agreement with the Army Ordnance Office, I continued to build the Peenemunde installations without its approval - a liberty that probably no one but myself could have taken

From

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAbraun.htm

------

If I remeber it right, as I did not find it in the net, Churchill said on the radio(?) on 7th September that the V-missile bombings were over.The next day one V-2 hit the city...

At 6.43 pm on Friday, September 8 1944, as people arrived home for the weekend clutching evening newspapers with headlines proclaiming the end of the German V-1 Cruise Missile attacks on London, a huge explosion rocked Staverley Road in the quiet suburb of Chiswick, West London, destroying six homes, killing three people and seriously injuring 17 others. There had been no air-raid warning, no sound of an aircraft or the all-too familiar drone of the V-1 flying bomb.

From

http://www.cdiss.org/v2.htm

 

This long thread first as I thought we might try to discuss the myth of Speer here. After reading the book " wages of destruction" I feel that Speer perhaps was not the main miracle maker nor was he a very kind person either. The misunderstood architect was probabaly as bad as the other top nazis and with the book we might find the real Speer.

 

I don't think Speer would have had sufficent influence even in 1939 to make the sort of enormous differences proposed here. There are just too many other players in the game, so to speak, to allow that to happen.

For example, take jet engine development. Henkel is developing these in secret outside government control. Junkers and BMW are both in development with Luftwaffe / RLM oversight. The RLM also has their own program going. But, the RLM itself has only a passing interest in this technology and is not pushing for it.
Would Speer come in a be able to:
1. Recognize its significance when there is no viable system or aircraft using this technology?
2. Be able to overcome inerta and Luftwaffe interests and bureaucrats to force some change or streamlining of development?
3. Would Göring or others high up in the Nazi hierarchy interfer with his attempts?

In motor vehicles Speer needs to overcome more than just the plethoria of vehicles in use. The German motor vehicle industry is literally miniscule compared to the US or even Britain where 10 times or more the number of vehicles are being produced. Without a massive expansion in capacity, overcoming Nazi reluctance to use foreign (eg., Opel / GM and Ford) manufacturer's vehicles in the military, and dealing with the paroachial (sp) interests of the various manufacturers streamlining and increasing production is not going to happen.

Would Speer meet resistance in going to 2 or 3 shifts versus the one day shift commonly in use in 1939. Would unions, guilds, and even Hitler go along with this? Remember, Hitler was worried about upsetting the populace by forcing too much work on them or making the economy too war oriented. The other problem is economic here. How much of the economy can be pushed into war production without having an economic collapse follow?

Things are not so straight forward here.

 

From " Wages of destruction " some interesting parts...

" Responsibility for the Committees within the Armaments Ministry lay within the so-called Technishces Amt. Head of the Amt was Karl Otto Saur. Any idea that the Speer Ministry was a haven of "Unideological efficiency" is rendered absurd by the central position occupied within it by Saur.Saur was the living embodiment of the "political engineer". After Todt´s death , Saur rapidly developed a close working relationship with Speer. And he continued in his role as the Rottweiler of the Armaments Ministry until the very last days of war."

" In early autumn 1943, the Air Ministry had drafted its own plan to bolster Germany´s fighter defences ( remember Milch was leading the Luftwaffe production ). But rather than assisting Milch in the implementation of this crucial production drive, Speer had conspired with Willy Messerschmitt to unseat the priority of the Me 262.

The Autumn 1943 was filled with acrimonious meetings, in which Speer launched a dramatic personal attack on Willian Werner, the same man who two years earlier had been universally acclaimed as the leading expert on mass-production.

It was only in February 1944, once control over aircraft production had passed to the Speer Ministry, that everything suddenly changed. Not only did Speer´s Jaegerstab take credit for the resources accumulated by the Air Ministry in 1943. Saur and his cohorts were also free to adopt a programme in the summer of 1944 that was virtually identical to the "impractical" Air Ministry proposal of nine months earlier."


" To ensure that the figures for July 1944 really were the highest on record, Speer added the prospective output of August to the July totals."

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In the pic Speer rewarding Saur with a medal...( not sure about the medal name other than the German one mentioned: Ritterkreuzes des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes mit Schwertern )