What if the Germans attacked Moscow instead of Stalingrad?

I have heard some terrifying stories about how Russian girls beat up their boyfriends. Russian girls have balls.

 

If they (meaning Adolf Hitler) had chosen to stick to the Marckes Plan of 1940, as i keep stating that Moscow was the main objective to be attacked by two large Army Groups Army Group North and Centre, i keep stating that under the Markes plan Leningrad was to totaly ignored, and that the time scale for the capture of Moscow was to done in 12 to 14 weeks, also one fatal flaw in the assumption of allocated Soviet Rifle Division, true the numbers are impressive but a standard Soviet Rifle Division had half the numbers of the standard German Infantry Division, so while 33% casualty rate is high in a German unit, it is catastrophic in a Soviet unit (Crica 1941).

And unfortunately you haven't read my post did you, my senario states clearly that the assault on Moscow takes place on the 29th October a full five weeks before the expected aatack in real time, thus giving the Germans plenty of time to at least gain a foot hold in Moscow before the onset of General Winter which hit on the night of 5th/6th December and one thing even in a POD it is the weather that can't change.

And to finish off with the amount of bullsh1t being post about French Women, i think this thread should be locked

 

actually on paper, a Soviet Rifle division had 14,483 men organized into three rifle regiments of three battalions each plus two artillery regiments, a light tank battalion and supporting services... which was very similar to a German infantry division. However in reality by the time war broke out a soviet division was woefully understrength, resembling the German infantry divisions in the West in 1945 at which large amounts had about half the man power.

Like you said you cant change the weather and on the 16th of November temperatures dropped to 5 degrees and -8 on the following day. Winter started slightly earlier. As you can imagine soldiers began freezing by late october

 

I have a book called "A Statisical Anlaysis of World War Two" and i clearly states that the TO&E of a Soviet Rifle Division circa 1941 was 9,500 officers and men, while at the same time the German counterpart had 15,000 officers and men 50% more men.

If you take into account the German offensive on Moscow taking place on the 29th October 1941 then even with your date of 16th November 1941 that gives the Germans at least a two week foothold in Moscow, but as -8C as you stated and dated that pales into nothing with the -35 to -40C which hit on the night of 5th/6th December 1941.

And one statistic that many choose to ignore and that is just as many Soviet troops perished in their winter as the Germans, many hundreds of thousands still were wearing their summer uniforms, no one expected the worst Siberian Winter Front to hit in living memory, not even the Soviets were prepared.

 

This is exactly what I have said. In fact most Soviet Units by this time had around 8 thousand. This ofcourse all changed further down the road.

While wearing summer clothes I would imagine that the Germans would probably start getting cold around 40-30 degrees? Those would have been the temperatures by the beginning of october.

Agreed!!!

I will even go one step further and say that unlike the Germans, the Soviets ( in the initial stages of the war ) also had poor leadership, a non-existing airforce, poor supplies, the huge disadvantage of being caught by surprise and large numbers of men which had no guns nor ammo.....

Yet the Germans still managed to loose.

 

I don't want to be unpleasant, but we are going round and round and round... What really saves this thread is French women.

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but i can't recall you mentioned a fundomental fact in autumn '41: S M O L E N S K
The idea of attacking moscow was over after the battle of smolensk. here the nazis faced the first soviet counterattack, which was a failure, truth, but which proved that soviets were far far far away from capitulation.

In smolensk the nazis for the first time faced a big force, not well equipped, not well organized, but nevertheless, a strong army. It was in that moment, at smolensk, that many nazis (probably hitler too) realized that the war they expect to fight in russia was over. the red army existed and the absurdity of the barbarossa offensive came into light.

I totally agree with this simple but effective statment from wikipedia about the follow up of smolensk:

actually i'm more and more convinced that the blue operation '42 was a better plan then barbarossa, even though in pratce the nazis could not afford it and were already out of touch with reality. But cut off soviet resources was something that made sense.

 

according to your "visual" remarkable evidence... i must admit that french girls have balls too (not just the russians have).

 

I prefer the Frenchwomen fantasy to yours. How many German divisions were at full strength and well supplied by the capture of Smolensk?

Surely the change of plan to capture raw material regions - Ukraine, Donbass and Crimea and to cut off oil from the Caucasus makes Moscow less important because they provide the raw materials consumed by the Moscow industrial region?

"...all the propaganda about 'General Winter' was simply stupid. It was fundamental to an eastern campaign to know that it can be cold in Russia at this time of year." Leyen, F. Ruckblick zum Mauerwald. (1966).

The only thing which could have prevented a war of attrition was a collapse of the soviet regime.

 

I propose we change the title of this thread to "La Vie en Rose"

 

See me in me heels and ting
Dem check sey we hip and ting
True them no know and ting
We have them going and ting
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots

See me pon the road I hear you call out to me
True you see mi inna pants and ting
See mi in a 'alter back
Sey mi gi' you heart attack
Gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist
Uptown Top Ranking

See mi in mi Benz and ting
Drivin' through Constant Spring
Them check sey me come from cosmo spring
But a true dem no know and ting
Dem no know sey we top ranking
Uptown Top Ranking

Shoulda see me and the ranking dread
Check how we jamming and ting
Love is all I bring inna me khaki suit and ting
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots

Watch how we chuck it and ting
Inna we khaki suit and ting
Love is all I bring inna me khaki suit and ting
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots

Love inna you heart dis a bawl out fe me
When you see me inna pants and ting
See me inna 'alter back
Sey me gi' you heart attack
Gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist
Uptown Top Ranking

See mi pon the road and hear you call out to me
True you see me in me pants and ting
See me inna 'alter back
Sey me gi' you heart attack
Gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist
Gimme likkle bass, make me wine up me waist
Love is all I bring inna me khaki suit and ting
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots

You shoulda see me and the ranking dread,
Check how we jamming and ting
Love is all I bring inna me khaki suit and ting
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots
Nah pop no style, a strictly roots

 

if someone wants to deepen the subject........

YouTube - Althea & Donna--Upton Top Ranking

 

I hope you didin't mean that literally!

 

Eeeeh, Rastaman

 

I love soccer!

 

Slon, why do websites like this one exist?
Russian marriage agency. Single Beautiful Russian Girls: Russian women photo singles

 

Why not?

One can find low self esteem women anywhere.

Besides some men need them!

 

Neon Knight although the Germans faced a counter attack by the Soviets Army Group Centre had effected and the destruction of the Vyazma Pocket by the 26th October 1941 and forward units closest to Moscow were about 100 kilometres from the city and had the attack on Moscow had gone ahaid on the 29th October 1941 that gives the German at least 6 weeks in the assault on Moscow before "General Winter" hit on the night of the 5th/6th December 1941. The tactic of the attack was to encircle the city and attack on all fronts, not a direct assault, thus negating any western defenses that had being built.

 

Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean by that.

 

Women such as these from any country, prostitue themselves in order to move out and find a better life...