What if the Me-262 was created earlier?

I think you're talking about Rudel?

 

Rudel was #1 I think the guy I was talking about was #2 but thats not important here. Achtung Panzer! - Hans-Ulrich Rudel! According to this site which is not the first-hand interview I am looking for Rudel was credited with 519 tanks. Still no mention of what killed them. Still looking.

 

It seems very difficult to confirm tank kills and Normandy showed that most fighter bombers could only damage tanks.

 

it is proven fact by the OKL that the LW did not keep track of claims after October 1944 reason enough that we do not see all the JG's and NJG's histories being published there is no source info for the claims records as too many conflicts arise. It mostly by propaganda for the folks back home that the JG 7 jet unit and ground attack units like /Rüdels SG 2 look so brilliant, in most probability his mix of bombs and using the 3.7cm long rods shot up 250 tanks no more during the course of the war.

JG 7 kills-claims have been covered in too many books, again I point out that we just don't know for certain just how many bombers or fighters fell to 3cm weapons.

As to the 3cm Mk 108 it's purpose was to bring in the pilot/crew of attacking fighters to within 100 yards to be effective, one of the reasons primariy that Sturmstaffel 1 was developed in late 1943 to be furthered by 3 Sturmgruppen using the Fw 190 A-8 and A-8/R2 with outboard 3cm weapons package, later in November of 44 III./JG 301 was equipped with an unarmored version of the SturmFw machine to use in it's 4 staffeln

 

Would it have been too disadvantageous (as far as space, weight, etc. is concerned) to design and integrate a long barreled 30mm cannon in the Me-262/FW-190/Me-109?

I'm under the impression that most Me-262 were flown either by combat veterans or real Experten. Is that accurate?

 

He can't! I am his older sister, the silly bu**er can't read nor write! I read aloud what you guys are writing, and type in his utterances, while correcting his awful grammar!

 

Wolfy experten is a relative term in this case, true pilots from all over the LW were selected or sometimes offered a chance to fly the fastest thing going in the LW arsenal, some jet pilots nevre really got the hang of the 262 and went back to their piston enigned JG's. If you would look just at the non com kids and even corporals that made up JG 7 you might be surprised and those for the first time scored victoreis agasint the Allies in the 262 when they could not in the Fw or Bf 109G's.

no it would make no sense to have a long barreled cannon in any of the a/c you selected although even in 1945 Bf 109G and K's had underwing 2cm waffenpods for ground attack work. 3cm were trialed on underwing pods on the Fw 190A with terrible results mostly aiming probs and shudder in flight from firing and the aerodynamcis were faulty this was the case with the 262 and the stupid idea of adding a 5cm cannon through the nose which jammed every time it was fired while serving in JV 44.

 

I see. Even "Kommando Nowotny", filled with great aces, had a bad experience.

I was wondering about the longer Barrel 30 mm gun due to the fact that the Me-262 has no propeller on the nose. The barrels would naturally extend outside of the superstructure, which may or may be problematic (I don't know).

 

I stand corrected, and apologize to "tikilal"; i.e. there were around 85 "claims" against US fighters, a quick count from a table (Me 262 Combat Diary by Foreman and Harvey; pp. 240-247). But, from comparisons the book gives between recorded Allied losses and German jet claims, the real US fighter losses to 262's appear to be many fewer than 85, seemingly a pretty small fraction of that (22), but everybody inflates and denies kills and losses respectively. That is neither here nor there, 262s did shoot down US fighters.

Me-262 claims against RAF fighters are even harder to count. There are around 35 claims v Spitfires and Mosquitos but even most of those were recon planes; not fighters and not claimed as fighters. I leave out claims against American "Lightnings" for the same reason, the USAAF recorded only one known P-38 loss to an Me-262 but admit to a number of F-5's (recon Lightnings). Two Yak-9's were the only Soviet fighters claimed by Me-262's, while the same Yak-9 fighter model has claims against 262s.

Again I apologize for seeming to denigerate a machine others seem to idolize, I try to do neither; that is all.

 

The long barrelled Mk 103 cannon weighed about double that of the Mk 108. It also had from what I can tell a farily wicked recoil. If it were placed on the Me 262 at most two, maybe three could be installed; most likely just two. The airframe might need reinforcement to take the recoil as well. I couldn't tell you for sure on that aspect what might be needed.
In any case, the trade off here is longer ranged shooting but less firepower. Against the primary Me 262 target a large bomber this is probably a bad trade. Bombers are better attacked by large caliber weapons even if relatively slow firing because of the need for massive damage to bring them down. Against fighters a high velocity fast firing weapon is best.
I can't see the Germans late in the war opting for a fighter of any sort optimized for shooting other fighters down. Their problem is bombers. The escorts are primarily something to be avoided not engaged necessarily.

 

The long barrelled Mk 103 cannon weighed about double that of the Mk 108. It also had from what I can tell a farily wicked recoil. If it were placed on the Me 262 at most two, maybe three could be installed; most likely just two. The airframe might need reinforcement to take the recoil as well. I couldn't tell you for sure on that aspect what might be needed.
In any case, the trade off here is longer ranged shooting but less firepower. Against the primary Me 262 target a large bomber this is probably a bad trade. Bombers are better attacked by large caliber weapons even if relatively slow firing because of the need for massive damage to bring them down. Against fighters a high velocity fast firing weapon is best.
I can't see the Germans late in the war opting for a fighter of any sort optimized for shooting other fighters down. Their problem is bombers. The escorts are primarily something to be avoided not engaged necessarily.

 

a couple things to mention

JG 7 was ordered not to engage US or RAF fighters unless they had a decisive altitude advantage where they could make a successful zoom and bank attack.

the last days on the Ost front have still not been written but JG 7 author M.B. still has some secrets up his sleeve that he has not yet let out of the bag. At least 15 Soviet fighters and ? Il-2's were blown to pieces on the Ost front with several very successful ground attacks using modified R4M's against Soviet armor and MT.

when my authroing team visited M.B. in the east some years ago he revealed some interesting late war info to us

 

Thanks, I see. Looking up the MK103 revealed many of its deficiencies. It only fired @~400RPM compared to 650RPM on the short 30mm gun so if two were installed, it would dramatically reduce firepower although it would have much improved muzzle velocity.

The Germans would then need a totally new and improved 30mm autocannon design if they wanted it to be fitted on the ME-262.

 

actually in my opinion the techs would of done better if they would of removed the heavier 3cm and replaced with four 2cm weapons doing something about rehousing the long barrels in a long streamlined nose cone.

It had been found that during the night and this includes dozens of reports the 3cm mounted on Bf 110G-4's and Me 262 would easily blind the pilot and for day as well as night fighters the closure rate was severe, the 3cm rounds tearing huge bits out of the RAF/US bombers and then flying through that debris.............well you get the idea

 

No need to apologize. I was not out to be critical of you, you seemed to make an honest inquiry.

I can not seem to find the number now but the plane only had room for about 30-40 rounds per gun this almost negates the rate of fire either way.

 

From my personal opinion, the Me-262 was not that good of an aircraft, simply because it was plagued with technical problems. The jet engine was a new deign at the time (obviously) and not only did the engineers not know how it would react, but more importantly neither would the pilot. There are even recorded cases of the engine literally falling off the plane in early trials. Although the guns, four machine hidden in the nose, were efective.

So from a technical point of view, had the 262 joined the war earlier, the designers and engineers would have had the time to bug out the problems with the new engine and then perhaps the Me-262 could have dealt some very important numbers.

 

Good point Joe!

 

The two main technical problems with the 262 were the weak landing gear and flame outs. The weak landing gear was caused by lack of the proper materials. Poor alloys were substituted with the results we all know.

The flame outs were caused by a number of different issues most of them were from pilot error. The throttle in the jets were not like those in the piston planes and pilots would either push them forward too much or pull them back too far. The engines were poor. It is true part of this problem was that turbines were knew and nobody new how the high speed and internal temps would affect the parts. The other side of the problem was the same as with the landing gear. The needed alloys were unavailable so subtitutes had to be used.

Why do you say that the engineers did not know how it would act. I have never heard this and generally find it hard to believe.

 

PS hope you Canadian boys are not freezing to death today. Feels like -57F in Winnepeg. We have a balmy 32F here in New Mexico.

 

Ih shut up!!! Just joking! We Canucks can handle the cold better than anybody!

Well what I think my buddy joe meant was that it was a new breed of craft so like all new projects there where bound ot be little glitches here and there. And because these very craft had such a small life time the engineers really had little time to react to these probleme. I at least think that is what he meant!

Oh By the way I think you should know that in Cornwall Ontario it is -20 but feels like -40C with the windchill!

Think of that while you get a tan!!!!!