Which Wehrmacht branch was the most effective?

Errr...not really, as far as I know.

The Waffen SS was a sub-organization of the SS, which in turn sorted directly under the Nazi party (similar to the SA), without being involved with the Wehrmacht in any way. As such they were technically part of the Nazi party, and as such party employees rather than members of the armed forces.

In fact, the US Army had some legal wranglings upon taking their first Waffen SS prisoners due to this, since the Geneva Convention stipulates prisoners of war are captives part of the armed forces. For this reason many present-day organization are set up to transfer in times of war, I belive the US Coast Guard transfers to the Department of Defense from some other Department in times of war, for example.

Hitler made a move in this direction in '44, by moving the Waffen-SS member status from Party employees to Government employees, but they still remained outside the Wehrmachts administration and chain of command. As always, they were "lent" to Wehrmacht operational command though, which is not at all the same thing as being part of it.

 

Great Kai-Petri!

Out of curiosity, what does "Panttipataljoona" mean? My Finnish is a bit rusty *cough*nonexistant*cough*, though I can figure out that pataljoona could be...battalion...?

And it hasn't been translated has it?

 

Errr...not really, as far as I know.

The Waffen SS was a sub-organization of the SS, which in turn sorted directly under the Nazi party (similar to the SA), without being involved with the Wehrmacht in any way. As such they were technically part of the Nazi party, and as such party employees rather than members of the armed forces.

</font>[/QUOTE]Heartland is right on the money. The Waffen-SS was the armed branch of the SS, put under Wehrmacht or Army Command only in operational terms. They got thier own SS judication (guess why), their own replacement system, organizational command structure, poayroll, buerocracy.

One could consider them parts of the armed forces of Nazi Germany, but not part of the Wehrmacht.

At least as far as I ever heart.

Cheers,

[ 06. May 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Heartland,

the "Panttipataljoona" means the battalion was collateral/mortgage for the Finnish co-operation with the Germans. Pantti=collateral/mortgage. During the winter 1940 the Germans started making contacts secretly with the Finns that a war might start between Russia and Germany. As one part of co-op a Finnish Battalion was begun, the Finns wanted it to be a Wehrmacht unit but Germans ( Himmler ) demanded it to be part of Waffen-SS. At the time this was seen as proper way to get clos er to Germany as Russia was making demands on Finnish territory all the time, and probably would have attacked again unless Hitler had "forbidden" it.

--------

No, unfortunately the book is not translated.

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In general the German tactics were probably superior in 1939-1942, but that was before the Russians had developed their own to counter the Germans. And Germans did not train defence for a long time as it was seen as "not necessary".

The method of driving cars as close as possbile to the enemy was seen as a necessity because in Russia as the distances are vast it just was not possible to walk slowly ahead. As well the losses were often notices to be small/acceptable even if the first contact was the soft skin vehicles being fired at.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/wikings.htm

The most experienced of all Finnish volunteers in "Wiking" Division was SS-Hauptsturmführer (Captain) Y. P. I. Kaila, veteran of the Spanish Civil War and Finnish-Russo Winter War. He tells how "Wiking" attacked and his opinion on training in Waffen-SS:


"We moved usually on to enemy contact in lorries and when the first machine guns began to fire us, we jumped off and started our attack. The most common style of advancing during a battle was so called 'Schützenreihe' in which distances between each man were about 30 m and between squads 100 m. Slowly artillery fire directed against such formation didn't cause serious losses and we usually didn't take cover unless the shots became too near. When we were closer to enemy we rushed on special 'Schützenkeil' formation which afforded us better possibilities to shoot."

As well the same as earlier:

"I recognized lots of bravery, but hardly any battle-skill. SS-officers were not interested in tactical questions! A battle and bading a battle were considered so simple, that no special military skill was needed for these. Great German heroism throws such 'prosaism' into the shade."

"My impression on the training of SS-troops is based on their result, acting on a battlefield and in a battle and off-battle. In this respect I got very infavourable view."

---

I do believe this was based on the first years´ observation and indeed, the Waffen-SS was not meant to fear battle, instead living for it and looking for it. I guess the tactical part did not matter much at the time, and for Finnish soldiers that must have looked very "weird", just like the Heer generals recalled it as total lack of military capability.

One of the things that must have had a major effect on Waffen-SS troops´ battle power was the training under fire of live ammo. If you are used to it then you have the advantage against the enemy that´s unfamiliar with gun fire.

-----

Unfortunately for now I did not find from those two books material to actually criticize the German Waffen-SS officers´ actions, but I´ll try to read on if something comes up.

One thing anyway really made an impression to one of the guys as he was among the troops that attacked Russia June 1941. He saw then Blitzkrieg hit the Russian troops and was totally amazed by the power of the system!Think of it if you could see the powers unleash in front of your eyes...



Anyway, that was then but thankfully the modern digital systems can create such wonderful scenes that maybe one day we´ll be able to see it as well-without the bodies!

 

Definately no. The Wehrmacht considers ALL Germany's Armed Forces. You shoudl look at any Order of Battle in any book and you will see that The High Command of the Armed Forces (OKW) included the three high commands OKL, OKH and OKM and as WSS was under OKH's command (at the field) it is under the OKW too. And it is not only theorical. Hitler and Keitle were the heads of the OKW and the absolute commanders of all Germany's military forces. Wehrmacht is NOT the same than Heer.

And I object the results as the WSS didn't contribute to the war effort and the little it did was made by a third of its units. The rest were folthy divisions.

I would vote the Army and the Navy in very close branches, without forgetting the Luftwaffe which contributed in great shape to 1939-1942s victories...

 

Another thing: if you remember the War Ministry was replaced by the OKW in early 1938. The early War Ministry included the three Armies of Germany. And the WSS, although unofitially, was always under the command of the Army, so...

 

Hi Heartland--Andy--thats basically what I said. The Waffen SS means armed SS, and I know they do not fall under the General SS.

Being the armed ss--they did fall under the Wehrmacht.

Wish I had more time to go into this but the library is closing for the evening--ill be back like a bad penny.

 

I would say the order of battle and operational command has very little to do with this.

For example, this would also mean that you consider the Italian forces on the Eastern Front as Wehrmacht forces? They were non-Wehrmacht forces put under the operational command of OKW/OKH in exactly (as far as I can see) the same way as the Waffen-SS, were they not?



I'm not trying to split hairs or be annoying here, but the organizational divide between the WSS and regular Wehrmacht is simply too clear to ignore. One is the armed forces of a country, the other armed employees of a political party.

 

The W-SS was only put tactically and operationally under OKH command during wartimes. The Waffen-SS and her predecessors were a part of the SS, which of course was not part of the German Wehrmacht (the Organization "Wehrmacht").

Unless you don't translate "wehrmacht" as being every military organisation (in the meaning of the summary of all armed forces, so the U.S. "wehrmacht", the Swedish "wehrmacht" etc.) you'll find that the W-SS was explicity seperated from the Wehrmacht by Hitler back in 1938 (at this time named SS-VT).

Of course we can bet again.

Suggested reading:

Buchheim, Broszat, Jacobsen: "Anatomie des SS- Staates"

Heinz Höhne: "Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf. Die Geschichte der SS"

Bernd Wegner: "Hitlers politische Soldaten"

Georg Tessin: "Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg"


Cheers,

[ 07. May 2003, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Indeed. The order from Hitler, dated August 17, states that:
"The SS Verfuegungstruppe is neither a part of the Wehrmacht nor a part of the police. It is a standing armed unit exclusively at my disposal. As such and as a unit of the NSDAP its members are to be selected by the Reichsfuehrer SS according to the philosophical and political standards which I have ordered for the NSDAP and for the Schutzstaffel."


During the Nuremberg trials, the organization of the SS was laid out as follows:

***Begin Quote

B. Organization and Branches of the SS. [...]

For this purpose reference is made to the chart depicting the organization of the SS as it appeared in 1945. This chart was examined by Gottlob Berger, formerly Chief of the SS Main Office, who stated in an attached affidavit that it correctly represented the organization of the SS (Chart Number 3).

(1) Supreme Command of the SS. At the very top of the chart is Himmler, the Reichsfuehrer SS, who commanded the entire organization. [...]

(2) Principal Branches of the SS. Up to 1933 there were no such specially designated branches. The SS was a single group, made up of "volunteer political soldiers." It was out of this original nucleus that new units developed.

(a) The Allgemeine SS. [...]
(b) The SD. [...]

(c) The Waffen SS. The third component is the Waffen SS, the combat arm of the SS, which was created, trained, and finally utilized for the purposes of aggressive war. The reason underlying the creation of this combat branch was described in the Organizations Book of the Nazi Party for 1943:

"The Waffen SS originated out of the thought: to create for the Fuehrer a selected long service troop for the fulfillment of special missions. It was to render it possible for members of the General SS, as well as for volunteers who fulfill the special requirements of the SS, to fight in the battle for the evolution of the National Socialist idea, with weapon in hand, in unified groups, partly within the framework of the Army." (2640-PS) [...]

(d) The Totenkopf Verbaende. [...]
(e) The SS Polizei Regimente. [...]

(3) Unity of the Organization.

Each of the various components described above played its part in carrying out one or more functions of the SS. The personnel composing each differed. Some were part-time volunteers; others were professionals enlisted for different periods of time. But every branch, every department, every member was an integral part of the whole organization. Each performed his assigned role in the manifold tasks for which the organization had been created. No better witness to this fact could be called upon than the Reichsfuehrer SS, whose every endeavor was to insure the complete unity of the organization. The following words are taken from his Posen speech:

"It would be an evil day if the SS and police fell out. It would be an evil day if the Main Offices, performing their tasks well meaningly but mistakenly made themselves independent by each having a downward chain of command. I really think that the day of my overthrow would be the end of the SS. It must be, and so come about, that this SS organization with all its branches -- the General SS which is the common basis of all of them, the Waffen-SS, the regular uniformed police (Ordnungspolizei), the SIPO (with the whole economic administration, schooling, ideological training, the whole question of kindred), is, even under the tenth Reichsfuehrer-SS one bloc, one body, one organization."
"The regular uniformed police and SIPO, General-SS and Waffen-SS must now gradually amalgamate too, just as this is and must be the case within the Waffen-SS. This applies to matters concerning filling of posts, recruiting, schooling, economic organization, and medical services. I am always doing something towards this end, a bond is constantly being cast around these sections of the whole to cause them to grow together. Alas, if these bonds should ever be loosened -- then everything -- you may be sure of this -- would sink back into its old insignificance in one generation, and in a short space of time." (1919-PS) [...]
***End Quote

 

The details are kind of faint but here is a question. Wasn't there a centralized recruiting department or process used by Germany where German nationals would go and then would be assigned to a 'Wehrmacht' branch (Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe, Heer)? This was not an option available to the Waffen SS which is why it recruited outside of Germany proper. So if this is the case, I would say that the Waffen SS was not part of the Wehrmacht, a state institution. Also, all branches of the Wehrmacht had some kind of government pension for those who retired. This also was not available to the Waffen SS. I would say then that the Waffen SS was not part of the Wehrmacht. It just fought alongside it.

 

Well, I agree to some point in here. I said that it was an unofitial part of the Wehrmacht. Andy and Heartland are right when they say that WSS was just an armed political organisation. But in the Orders of Battle (which DO have a lot to do in here) and actual combat the Italian, Finnish, Romanian, Solovakian, Italian, Hungarian and WSS Armies were all UNDER the command of the OKW, as 'onofitial' parts of the Wehrmacht.

So you are right. And I am right.

 

(((BIG SIGH))) I wish some of you would talk to a few Waffen SS vets and see what they would say when they are NOT being considered soldiers. I really think you would hear some VERY colorful answers. Start by asking Remy Schrijnen and other vets like him.

If these vets say that they were a part of the Wehrmacht--then they WERE a part of the Wehrmacht. The vets I personally know and are friends with certainly believe so.

Also, if the men of the Waffen SS were NOT consideered to be a part of the Wehrmacht--then how would one explain inter-service transferrs?

I.e. Someone from the Luftwaffe transferring to the Waffen SS and back to the Luftwaffe. Someone who was a famous Gebirgsjager officer transferring to the Waffen SS Gebirgsjager--from the Rumanian Gebirgsjager.(((Case in point--read the bios I have done on some of these men--you will get your answer there.

[ 08. May 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

Hmmm--the name Artur Phleps comes to mind as a prime example.

SS Obergruppenfuhrer und General der Waffen SS Artur Phleps.

From the 20's--30's and until he was "invited" to transferr to the Waffen SS, he served in the Rumanian Mountain Troops and had served with its 5th Korps. Then later he commanded the Calarasi Inf Rgmt, then 9th Inf Bde, then 1st Mtn Bde, then 5th territorial Command and his last Rumanian position was as a General of Rumanian Moutain Troops at their rank of Lieutenantgeneral.

[ 08. May 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

 

I totally agree with you Carl and I think you know I would be the last one to make any disparaging remarks about those who served with the Waffen SS. I was only answering the literal question and not the philosophical one.

 

Carl,

I am certainly well aware of what many Waffen-SS veterans think about being associated with the SS. It is perfectly understandable that these veterans want nothing to do with the common SS and the stigma of extermination camps and atrocities. I bet they have received a lot of abuse and trouble for being part of the WSS during the post-war years, where many people see no difference to WSS combat service and the regular SS.

The vets, in the situation Germany was in, would almost certainly have felt like they had joined any other branch of the armed forces. And the temptation must have been huge, joining an elite formation with all the latest equipment and many other perks in society. Of course these hardened combat troops would feel they have much more in common with the Wehrmacht along which they serve through gruelling conditions. Of course they have little sympathy or understanding for camp guards and such, that they feel have tarnished their reputation and marked them for life, caused much trouble as well as dragged them and their fellows in the dirt.

Unfortunately for them, there is simply no room for interpretation in the the organizational matter, as there is in how they performed their service. The Waffen-SS was the armed service of the Nazi Party, created for express purpose of the enforcing the society envisioned by Hitler and to a lesser degree Himmler. Had Germany won the war, the Waffen-SS would no longer have been busy fighting the Allies, and would have been the vanguard of the racial policies and ethnic cleansing that would have descended on Europe, much worse than what actually happened.

I don't see a problem with this, they worked in the same "area of expertise" and for the same government, side by side.

It is also worth pointing out that the Waffen-SS had a much more extensive transfer and rotation programme where combat-weary formations were sent on low-intensity jobs like guarding prisoner and concentration camps. Both volunteers, penal units and those unfit for frontline service served in extermination camps, perhaps the most famous of which is the infamous Josef Mengele of Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.

All this being said...one cannot do anything but offer the utmost personal respect to the vets serving in a combat role (or support of some kind). However, denying facts and history by claiming they were not an integral part of the SS does nobody a service! So much more credit to the veterans if they went through their service without being involved and tarnished with the atrocities of their organization.

Anyway, that's how I feel about the whole matter. It's a tricky matter, by I feel one must seperate the person from the organization. If you understand how I mean.

 

Carl,

of course everyone can BELIEVE what he wants, but I really don't get why it is so hard to accept the FACT, that the Waffen-SS was NOT part of the Wehrmacht-organization?

A discussion about believes is rather mute, you simply can't discuss facts away with that.

Let's look again at the order dating Aug. 17, 1938 which Heartland already cited, evidence 647-PS at the Nuernberg trail:

Top Secret Hitler order, 17 August 1938
"(...)
II. The Armed Units of the SS.
A. (The SS Verfuegungstruppe)
1. The SS Verfuegungstruppe is neither a part of the Wehrmacht nor a part of the police. It is a standing armed unit exclusively at my disposal. As such and as a unit of the NSDAP its members are to be selected by the Reichsfuehrer SS according to the philosophical and political standards which I have ordered for the NSDAP and for the Schutzstaffel. Its members are to be trained and its ranks filled with volunteers from those who are subject to serve in the army who have finished their duties in the obligatory labor service. The service period for volunteers is for 4 years. It may be prolonged for SS Unterfuehrer. Such regulations are in force for SS leaders. The regular compulsory military service (par. 8 of the law relating to military service) is fulfilled by service of the same amount of time in the SS Verfuegungstruppe.

III. Orders for the Case of Mobilization.
A. The employment of the SS Verfuegungstruppe in case of mobilization is a double one.

1. By the Supreme Commander of the Army within the wartime army. In that case it comes completely under military laws and regulations, but remains a unit of the NSDAP politically.

2. In case of necessity in the interior according to my orders, in that case it is under the Reichsfuehrer SS and chief of the German Police.

In case of mobilization I myself will make the decision about the time, strength and manner of the incorporation of the SS Verfuegungstruppe into the wartime army, these things will depend on the inner-political situation at that time."

Empasis are mine.

This has nothing to do with W-SS men not being soldiers or alike, they were part of the German armed Forces, during wartime they were put tactically and operational under OKH command but they were NOT part of the Wehrmacht like a "4th branch" aside Lw, Heer, KG, and not absorbed into the Heer-Organization, really.

Cheers,

[ 09. May 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Hi PzJgr my friend--I was remarking to what Heartland and Andy were syaing about the Men of the W-SS not being directly tied to the Wehrmacht.

Hi Heartland:

Ill start from here. You said the Waffen SS was the armed part of the SS--that is totally true, no problem here. Where the problem lays is that the Waffen SS--at least in the beginnings--was indeed under strict control of the Heer. The Heer definately is a part of the Wehrmacht.

Now I guess if one wants to be technical--the Waffen SS being under control (to a huge extent) by the Heer--definately means that they were a part of the Wehrmacht.

Now--I do not think it's fair to suggest that if Germany had won the war--that the Waffen SS would be the vanguard of inforcing racial policies. Maybe so but probably not. The Waffen SS has always been considered the 4th branch of the Wehrmacht--the Elite branch if you wish. These are akin to the status of the US Marines. Yes--the US Airforce is the 4th member of our armed services. The US Coast guard is considered the 5th branch of our armed services--even tho they are not really recognized so under tables of organization--just like the Waffen SS.

Tis true about their rotation system, I personally know vets who had been transferred to light duties while they recooperated from their wounds. Most of these men were made to drive vehicles--transferr supplies, guard warehouses and factories, were made to do convoy armed escourt and the like, and yes--some even made to be a guard at concentration camps.

I do not deny any facts that are attributed to the Waffen SS--i'm merely pointing out that they were considered to be the 4th branch of the Wehrmacht. Beinga major military organization instead of being the mere SS/VT--they fell under Military jurisdiction rather than political jurisdiction. This fact also keeps them a seperate entity from the Allgemeine SS. These men were NOT, political soldiers--they were soldiers.

If one can consider any armed body of Germans as political soldiers--then you have to say that the SA--were political soldiers. Not untill the very end--were SA formations as a whole--were used as combat troops. However, it is fact that many SA men were drafted or transferred to serve in diffenerent branches of the Wehrmacht--as replacements etc.

And I do understand what you mean.


Hi Andy:

It cannot be accepted that the Waffen SS was not a part of the Wehrmacht because of what i explained above to heartland.

Right--I know that the SS/VT were not a part of the Army. Through Hitler himself--Sepp Dietrich was responsible for integrating the fledgling Waffen SS w/ the Army. All I can suggest for arguments sake--is read Charles Messengers book on Sepp Dietrich. I think it would substantiate what I point out above.

Right again--I do know that Hitler was going to be the sole person to decide what the status of the Waffen SS was going to be.

Yes--I know that many more senior Heer officers had such a bad taste for the Waffen SS but--I also know that there were men like Erwin Rommel who also had a close relationship with them--or at least by 1944. Before and by the ending months of the war--a great many Heer Commanders were extremely greatful to have a Waffen SS unit serving by their side.

Anyway, I do and will believe what the vets tell me of their involvement and relationship to the Wehrmacht. You can't fault me for what I am told--can you?

As I said before--the Waffen SS to the Wehrmacht, is like what the US Marines are to the US Armed Services. This can be taken however one wishes to take it.

Best regards--Carl.

 

OK, I give it up. I think that you cannot be convinced no matter what evidence and facts heartland or I would bring up. Your personal believe is a fact to for you, all historians and experts and even Hitler, Himmler, the SS-Versorgungsämter, the SS-Hauptamt, the Wehrmachts-Auskunftsstelle, the Bundesversorgunggsesetz, the SS-Ersatzwesen, the Reichsfinanzministerium, of course the Nuermberg court, and all other officals no matter if they existed during the Third Reich or afterwards, are wrong, so be it.

But please don't say "it cannot be accepted" but "I cannot accept", that would be more true.

"It" is accepted without serious doubt that the Waffen-SS wasn't a "4th branch" of the Wehrnmcht as much as one likes it to be. Wehrmacht had 3 branches and their admin, period. Comparing it to other Armies in the world isn't a very convincing argumentation in the face of the existing facts.

A Policeman who helps putting out a fire under the command of the chief of the ladder doesn't become an official firefighter because of that, and I dare to say that at least some U.S. marines wouldn't be pleased at all to be compared with SS.

Let's stop this nonsense.

Cheers anyway,

 

Now I am messed up...

This is true.

And this is also truth. He becomes an unofitial firefighter.