Who can beat the Mustang ?

we`re not arguing, we`re discussing.
thats one of the things forums are for!!!

I mentioned that about 10 messages ago!!

Just People getting a bit nationalised, no one yet has mentioned either a Russian or Italian Aircraft!!

Hey Marnes, i forgot the Spitfire was as rough as a badger`s armpit.
My 2p.

Matt

 

An additional factor for the P-51 ( particularly the 'D' variant ) was that it was relatively easy to fly ; certainly easier than the Spitfire. Relatively novice pilots could get on with the business of fighting other aircraft without having to pay undue attention to actually flying - this was not the case with the Spitfire.

That's not my book-earned opinion ; it's a statement made to me by a veteran pilot who had 60 different aircraft types in his logbook......

 

Actually it would depend on what mark of Spitfire you flew
From the Mk I to the Mk 9 I would disagree totally, every account I've ever read states that the Spitfire was a dream to fly, and had no vices in these marks.
However the Marks XIV and above were, due to the far greater power from the engine, did require some care.

 

Why I think the P-51 is better.

The Spitfire can turn faster no question here but the P-51 was not far behind, and was better than the Me109 or FW190.

Until the Mark 21 the P51 could fly faster and climb higher, note that the Mk21 was produced in late 44 and only 100 by the end of the war.

The 51 carried 6x.50 cal machine guns (400 rounds ea) compared to the 2x20 mm cannons (60 rounds ea) and the 4x.303 (350 rounds ea). While the 20mm cannons would be more powerful you can not shoot them as fast and you have to be more accurate the first shot. The .303 can not compare to the .50. Not to mention the nearly 1000 rounds more the mustang carried.

The P-51 was made of aluminum compared to the fabric and wood of the Spitfire, meaning that the P-51 could withstand a hit better.

Now for the kicker. Imagine you have an awesome plane but you cant get it to the fight, then you would have yourself a spitfire. With a maximum armed range of 800 miles, excluding combat time you would barely have time to get to Europe and turn around. The P-51 did the bulk of air-to-air combat in Europe after 42 simply because it could get to the fight. Somebody mentioned that the RAF didn’t need fighter support for its bombers. If it had tried to hit something more then a city it would have had to fly in daylight, and with out fighter support there would have been no Bomber Command after a month of that.

In the end the Spitfire did what it was supposed to do, defend England. The P-51 did what it was supposed to do destroy enemy fighters so that the bombers can destroy their targets. Both did well but I think the P-51 was a better combat plane. We could also start to look at the number of planes available of all combat variants (some 4000 of the Spitfires compared to 9000 Mustangs).

 

hi mate,
thinking your getting confused with the hurricane.

only a fraction of the spitfire was material, seatbelts etc.
The vickers .303" machine guns fired at 1200rds per minute.

the spitfires didn`t need the range as they were being operated in France post D-day!!!

Bomber command flew at night, so the risk was lessend. they used the Pathfinder sqns to locate and illuminate a city or other target.

Matt

 

The Spitfire was a dream to fly, no question...but it wasn't such a dream to fly and fight at the same time. No problem for a skilled pilot, agreed - but much more of a problem for a novice.

The P-51D was highly predictable and almost 'flew itself' under many circumstances ; the Spitfire needed more care. While concentrating on the heat of battle it was very possible to 'lose it'......

 

P-51D was truely the star peformer except for one little ink stain ........... the Ta 152H-1

you'll read why later in a book

 

TA-152 was a beast

 

beast you say, please tell me your thoughts on this

actually according to JG 301 veterans the existing Fw 190A-9's and Fw 190D-9's and Bf 109G-10's were to be replaced with the TA 152H in all four of the gruppen. Had this been accomplished from the first in September of 1944, things might have been a little more dicey for the 8th and 15th AF Stang pilots

 

I must admit Martin, you are the only person or source I've come across who claims this.
Every other source states that the Spitfire in the majority of its marks was a 'nice' aircraft both to fly and fight in.

 

The Me 262 was a faster plane than the Ta 152 & that had no big impact on the air war so why would the Ta 152

 

well lets look shall we, faulty engines, bad mechanics many of the time, too fast actually to set up for attacks on bombers and even on the Mustang, too wide a turning radius made it dog fodder for P-51 pilots, flame outs of the engines occurred often, non-fuel efficient in other words no stinking long range.

JG 300 was to be in total equipped for short range combat near Berlin against US bomber formations but the LW Geschw. never saw one enter into their service

my vote goes for the Ta 152H

 

Least the Me 262 was active in WW2 & not a pipe dream like a fighter Sq of Ta152
That like me say the P80 shooting star a better fighter than a P51

 

you're obviously not familiar with the Ta 152H in service then..........you will be in time

and the question is such what could beat out the Mustang.. ? the 262 obviously in a flat out straight shot, the US/LW veteran interviews I have made since the 1960's prove that

 

but in true reality nothing was going to subdue the P-51 D, not even German jets, an Arado falls to ace Don Bryan, depicted by friend T. White.

Accordingly I put the interview I had with Don on this very site a couple of years ago, the little Fahrt of a jet made a run on the Remagen bridge and Don caught up and put the jet and his Stang through the paces.
Don is still going strong these days ..........

E

 

Erich please correct me if im wrong but were they not prototypes?

 

It is interesting how many times it has been said that this weapon or that weapon, if only they had come out with it sooner. The fact is that the U.S. had already had their jet fighter in combat at the end of the war. New improved German planes would not have made a difference unless they came out two years earlier, and could be sustained. The Reicht was imploding long before the end of the war.

 

Up to the end of the war control surfaces were fabric and wood. And as I recall the prototype and several of the first production run had fabric wings.

It doesn't matter how fast the guns can fire if they only had 350 rounds each, according to you than they only had 15 seconds worth of ammo.

So the poor range of the spitfire contributed to the supply burden in France. Nice excuse for poor range. The P-51s operated from England until the end.

Bomber command switched to night bombing because of the losses that the Luftwaffe was inflicting on them. The Americans had the same problem until fighter escort for the bombers came along. Now if the pathfinder was off just a hare everyone else was off too. No one asserts that the British were more accurate than the Americans.

Me 262s were not vulnerable to the P-51 except against large numbers or when taking off and landing. This is why a squadron of fighters were assigned to patrol know 262 bases.

If the Arado had wanted to get away he could have, with a top speed of 30 over the mustang he should have been able to pull away... now if he was intent on hitting a bridge, he would have not just run away. Duty over life, quite noble.

 

~ I have the interviews the Arado opened it up and Don blew him off, g back and find the thread about this chase down. I've interviewed many Mustang pilots that shot down 262's as well as 262 pilots both have said the 262 turning radius was too broad and the US pilots got within that turning circle and shot them down

I also have additional information from Germany and the jg 301 pilots on the TA 152. The H-0 was operational in January of 45 to be followed by the H-1 the latter saw action against US, RAF and Soviet targets. I would suggest Monograms offering as well as Will R. Jg 301/302 book whether in the original German or reproduced English volume from his very important aspect.

actually working on a book covering the 262's against the US P-51 groups with some very interesting sidelights from both sides, those willing to talk have been very candid offering info not found elsewhere on tactics, speed, turn, arms and ammo and for the 262 pilots elluding the enemy, for the Stang vets how close and when and where to face them off

off to work more on the jg 301 volume