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Why did the world not care about the Holocaust

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ZeJanIt, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The invasion of Italy was in a different theater of Operations? Odd, I could have sworn that it was in the same theater. The 15th Air Force also was busy supporting the invasion of Southern France - Operation Anvil/Dragoon - I could swear that Southern France is bordered by the Med.

    You are familiar with the operational theater of World War II???

    Or are you talking about the Eastern Front?

    Yes, most of these squadrons were called "fighter squadrons." They tended not to attack oil fields..,
    There were also transportation squadrons...But, they did not attack anything.
    There were also reconnaissance squadrons...They also attacked nothing.

    One of those Badasses


    So how is it then, when targets were bombed outside the wire of Auschwitz, prisoners were killed both inside and outside the wire of Auschwitz? Answer - WW2 bombing is not all that accurate, so the heavies bombed in formation to guarantee that at least some bombs would fall on the target.


    That is highly doubtful, even if using divebombers.

    Actually, they would not save any lives, only prolong said lives.


    I would think that attacking targets that would end the war sooner would be worth it. Ending the war sooner so as to put an end to the Holocaust was what those people deserved. Bombing Auschwitz will not end the Holocaust...Only defeating Germany would do that.

    Just for you I will then restate my last sentences...The words are simple, the sentences short, and the point is sharp. So, hopefully even you will understand.
    Bombing Auschwitz will not end the Holocaust. Only defeating Germany would do that.
     
  2. ZeJanIt

    ZeJanIt Member

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    I 110% agree that only ending the war would end the Holocaust, but bombing the camps if possible would be a good thing imo.

    I also personally think we could have done more, not in a military way, but the underground way. we could have drop leaflets, spread the word and helped them escape and even after the war. When many Jewish people had no home, help them, resettle in Germany. Make Germany, Israel. kill like 500 birds one stone. to this day Israel is attacked, under threat. what if we made Germany Israel? serious out of the box idea, but I'm only talking theory. Not now, I'm talking right after the war. thoughts?

    What better way for justice imo. Give them all the homes, shops, everything and show the world what happens when you do this?


    Some one above mentioned what are we the world's police? yes, we are, every day and have been. It is on the shoulders of more enlightened countries and the more powerful to help the less. Even the other side does this for their own means, but all power countries do this.
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Patron   WW2|ORG Editor

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    You think it's a good idea, the people fighting the war didn't. Who had the best information?
     
  4. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    To help the Jews human lives were needed, not paper. For helping a Jew you the punishment was death, for you and your family. It was the best way to get killed. So rather powdered courage was needed, not leaflets.

    After the war Jews resettled in Germany in the blink of an eye. Most of the German Jews were rich and a part of German elites. They were more German than the Germans themselves, they were Jews in name only.
    Even deported to the ghettos in Poland they still were Germans, talking about "our army's victories in Russia" and similar themes - making locals hopping mad.
    They were so integrated that many Germans defended them publicly from deportations, even organizing public demonstrations - which in turn made Goebbels hopping made.
    The first post war German movies were produced by a Jew in 1947, the owner of Central Cinema Compagnie-Film GmbH.
    They really didn't need any help.

    After the war the European Jews were allowed to emigrate to Western countries, including the US, Britain, Canada, Australia and they did it in the blink of an eye. Only a small part of them emigrate to Israel - they were reasonable people after all.
    The natives had to stay and enjoy the genocidal communism to the fullest.

    Are you sure you don't live in a Hollywood movie? :)
    Ask everyday Americans and they will tell you they don't want their children to die in endless wars, and don't want their money to be sent to foreign kleptocracies and shitholes.
    Which aren't shitholes because they are poor, but are poor because they are shitholes.
    You're money will only make the shitholes deeper.
    And they hate you anyway.
     
  5. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    Kindly desist from misquoting me.

    Never said it was "too far"... Too difficult, without the fighter escorts, because you were too vague in when you thought "something should be done."


    But I've actually shown you; that bombers did fly from England, to Poland, just that it was a freaking hazardous mission, So it wasn't wrong, you are being obnoxious and rude!!!! Even flights from Italy, were also long, and dangerous... thereof the near 12% loss rate of flights to Warsaw....

    You've not said anything about which squadrons, nor when!!!!!!! Only made very vague speculation. Well, that's what you get back. Guess that makes you "wrong"...

    Kindly desist from putting words in my mouth. I did not say it could not be done, but that it should not be done, which is another matter entirely.
    Guess that makes you "wrong"...

    Seeing as how you cannot differentiate between the English words "could" and "should," I might suggest you desist from outright calling people "wrong."

    Dead Badasses are still dead, and don't win wars, don't stop fighters being produced, don't stop oil reaching the panzers.

    And now you are showing just how little you understand of bombing accuracy in 1944; even low level such, which didn't work too well in Warsaw either.



    Again, stop putting words in my mouth. Learn to read, and when you stop behaving like an idiot, maybe some other posters will stop calling you an idiot.

    Now, you finally admit, that lives would not be saved by the raid, yet you want to kill Allied flightcrew, in order to assuage some kind of personal moral indignation, possibly lengthening the war. Primarily, they most likely would not be successful, any repairs would be too easy, and the alternatives were too accessible. It was not "an unfortunate confluence of events" but a highly predictable outcome. It has nothing to do with what people deserved. Of the tens of millions that died in the war, how many "deserved" their deaths, in your not-so-humble opinion?

    Exactly how many planes are you willing to risk? How many sorties? When? Your vagueness is like a warm fuzzy blanket. "Something must be done..."

    It would be a difficult, dangerous, pointless, mission, that would achieve nothing. And known to be such before the start. Utterly fruitless. A waste of good men, in order to satisfy, what exactly? Your satisfaction that their deaths were deserved?!? You want to send bombers haring across all of Europe to right wrongful deaths everywhere, and you want to do that with gas warfare? Or have you abandoned that scheme yet?
     
  6. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    So no idiots, morons, birth defects today? Something wrong with you? Are you ill, or God forbids dying ? :)

    Operation Anvil/Dragoon were a walk in the park, and you forgot Italian Campaign. That's bad.
    But heavy bombers didn't do ground support there, although sometimes they did do - rarely.


    No they were called 148 Sqdn, (RAF) and 1586 Flt, (Polish Air Force). They were flying Halifax and Liberator bombers.


    What targets?
    They were bombing factories. When you bomb factories their workers get killed. The workers there were prisoners of Auschwitz.


    I think the people behind the Aarhus Air Raid (and a few other similar operations) will call you shortly.
    I'm sure they are very angry.

    I didn't claim that. So you wasted valuable resources by using bold font, I think Mr Otto is angry now too...
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  7. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    They were flying from Italy.

    And see the Aarhus Air Raid.

    As I've said the Polish pilots were willing and would do it.
    And I'm sure the supporting them SAAF pilots would do it too. They were proud they were allowed to fly those missions (against protests and orders of the British so some of the missions had to be flown in secret).
    The South African Air Force considers them as one of them finest hours to this day.
    We shouldn't tell others how they should die.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  8. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    Its been repeatedly stated to you, that just because some gungho crew are willing to charge in, does not mean it is the best use of resources. It was never about whether individual pilots, their crew, or whole squadrons were willing. You would also have found people willing to parachute in to Berlin and assassinate Nazi Leaders. That doesn't mean it is a good idea, good use of resources, or belong anywhere closer to reality than some fanboys wet dream.

    You are the one telling people how to kill people. With chemical warfare, even.

    You've clearly demonstrated your lack of morality, liberal or not.
     
  9. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    The Aarhus Raid, from Swanton Morley, is 700km direct, and they carried extra fuel tanks... and it was 31st October '44.
    So... by direct flight, only 2/3rds the distance. Over no mountain ranges. Your margins and time lines are shrinking.

    The RAF web site says of the efforts in Poland:

    Polish partisan forces attempt an uprising against the Germans in Warsaw. RAF forces in Italy attempt resupply missions with heavy losses - particularly amongst Polish and South African crews. The uprising collapses and resistance ends in October.
    RAF - RAF Timeline 1944

    Is this topic being discussed due to some latent feeling of collective guilt?


    =========================

    Since the 1970s, a number of military experts have looked at the problems involved in bombing Auschwitz and the rail lines and have concluded that it would have been extremely difficult and risky and that the chances of achieving significant results would have been small.

    A 2004 documentary, Auschwitz; the forgotten evidence included interviews with historians William Rubinstein and Richard Overy. It mentioned the Jewish Agency's request to the Allies on 6 July to bomb Auschwitz and showed the aerial reconnaissance photographs. It then examined the operational and technical feasibility aspects, in two categories: precision bombing by Mosquito-type aircraft, and area bombing by larger aircraft. It considered that precision bombing of railway lines was so common by 1944 that the Germans had specialist teams that could repair damage within hours or days.

    On June 28, Lesser met with A. Leon Kubowitzki, the head of the Rescue Department of the World Jewish Congress, who flatly opposed the idea. On July 1, Kubowitzki followed up with a letter to War Refugee Board Director John W. Pehle, recalling his conversation with Lesser and stating:

    "The destruction of the death installations can not be done by bombing from the air, as the first victims would be the Jews who are gathered in these camps, and such a bombing would be a welcome pretext for the Germans to assert that their Jewish victims have been massacred not by their killers, but by the Allied bombers."​



    General Spaatz’s officers had read Mann’s message reporting acceleration of extermination activities in the camps in Poland, they could perceive no advantage to the victims in smashing the killing machinery, and decided not to bomb Auschwitz.

    However, by November 1944, Auschwitz was more or less completely shut down.

    =========================================
    Paraphrased from Wikipedia.
     
  10. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    Your pilots and planes seems getting strangle impotent any time Auschwitz is mentioned. Is it some kind of a non-contagious disease?

    btw, do you know the Mosquito had 2,400 km range with full weapons load?


    Nice and failed attempt to derail the discussion. Are you going to introduce a Hollywood-like feel good movie as evidence?

    Jews weren't gathered in those camps but selected, exterminated, some sent to work to sub-camps, factories, other camps.
    It was a camp, not camps.
    There were no Jews around there for reasons mentioned already. So its all wrong.
    The summary is wrong anyway - Pehle changed his mind later and supported bombing. Kubowitzki probably did too - I don't remember.
    To describe all interactions between Pehle and others with American authorities accurately several pages are needed, not a few sentences.

    And I've said already the Jews leaders, because of their passivity in the face of the Holocaust, are more guilty than the Allies.
    So you've just provide some a small part of the evidence for it.


    I suppose the victims held a contrary view, but didn't make it to the discussion table.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  11. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    Btw, do you know aircraft seldom operate at anywhere near the extremes of their ranges, precisely because they are fighting machines, and need to maintain margins of safety. So with the Full weapons load, and at cruising speed, the Mosquito could get 2,205 km . But this was a direct flight of more than 1,000km, and then 1,000 km return. In war, it is pretty scarce to fly directly there, and back. You want to change direction to fool interceptors. Add in a few higher speed to avoid various obstacles, and, bingo, there is your margin of error completely gone,and you are floating in the Adriatic.

    Why do you think they had extra fuel tanks to get to Aarhus, a 'mere' 700 km away? But that knowledge apparently escapes your interest, or your narrative.

    No, need there are plenty of other exhibits of your bad behaviour, without having to resort to Hollywood. The quoted post is perfectly sufficient.

    1) It was a quote. Perhaps I should have edited it? Nitpicking about the validity of a plural "s" or not in a quote by an historical figure is imbecilic. It is comments like that, that earn you the moniker "moron." Seriously. Desist from the petty, for your own sake. You like to accuse others of derailing....
    2) It was referring to the general idiocy of bombing, not just Auschwitz, but all the camps, which has already be pointed out to you. Therefore it was perfectly valid!!! Learn to read.


    FFS....
     
  12. wm.

    wm. Active Member

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    There wouldn't be any interceptors worth mention, except a few Hungarian Messerschmitts (which wouldn't attack), and Slovakian bi-planes. There were a night fighter school in Kraków but they only showed up at night, and weren't very dangerous anyway.

    But it's unimportant because actually I didn't say Mosquitos should have done it, for the simple reason there were none in Italy if I'm not mistaken.
    I only pointed out to a person suffering from the can't do Auschwitz disease that at that time you didn't need dive-bombers to attack small targets.


    If want a discussion use your own words and knowledge, don't hide behind internet articles, or utterances of so called experts. The scholary writings and source literature dedicated to the occupation is measured in tons. Read some. Especially those written right then in 1942-1945.

    of course it was a quote. Who didn't notice it? Do you doubt the intelligence of members of this forum?

    "All the camps" were different from Auschwitz. So referring to them as "all" was wrong and misleading.
    That man was misinformed and you are wrong - again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  13. KJ Jr

    KJ Jr Well-Known Member Patron  

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    images.jpg
     
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  14. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    Thank you for confirming the image others have of you. It is well-noticed that your epitaphs are actually well earned.
     
  15. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    It may be worth noting for those members capable of reading, that Stab/JG52 (July '44-Nov '44), I/JG52 (August '44- January '45), and II/JG52 (August '44) are listed as having served out of a place known as "Krakau." (50 05 00 N – 19 59 40 E). JG52 flew exclusively Bf109s.

    In mid-1944, "Krakau" it became the main Luftwaffe airfield along the front east of Silesia as German forces retreated back toward the Reich.

    Which is why, of course it figured into the planning of the timing and routes of the flights to Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising.

    I wonder when JG52 became a Hungarian unit? I couldn't find any references to that...
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    First..."Cherry picking" a highly successful low-level mission is quickly countered with an abject failure, the raid on Ijmuiden, Holland. So, you score no points in this round. If you are not familiar with the Ijmuiden Raid...And I now know how you hate "walls of text"(reading and comprehension have never been your strong suits)
    The TLDR version: The low-level raid of May 17, 1943 raid on Ijmuiden, Holland. 11 B-26s went on a very low-level raid, one B-26 aborted due to mechanical trouble, and the remaining 10 B-26s were all shot down. The low-level raid of May 17, 1943 raid on Ijmuiden, Holland. 11 B-26s went on a very low-level raid, one B-26 aborted due to mechanical trouble, and the remaining 10 B-26s were all shot down. The target was not touched as the bombers had become lost flying at 50 feet over Holland.
    Some low-level marginal successes were: Operation Carthage, in which the target was successfully bombed, but so was a Danish school...The raid killed far more Danish schoolchildren than Germans. Also, there is Operation Jericho, which was marginally successful in that the target was hit. However, the raid killed some 100 French prisoners and wounded another 74. Not quite 300 French prisoners escaped, but most were recaptured. Finally, there was the September 25th, 1942 Mosquito raid on Oslo, which was an abject failure, failing to achieve it's goal of destroying the Victoria Terrasse building complex.

    Second...The Aarhus Raid bombers were 2-engine Mosquitoes...While, you have been blathering on about 4-engine heavies.

    Third...You forgot to mention that the bombed target was in Denmark, a hop, skip, and a jump from Britain...Certainly nothing compared to a long flight from Britain to Poland or from Foggia to Poland.


    Immaterial...Despite being willing to do it, would do it, could do it, etc. The fact remain that they did not do it...As such, all of this arguing over it's success or failure, worth or worthlessnes, is merely academic....But, we all are bored.

    Meh...I'm sure the RAF pilots were willing and would do it...I'm sure the 15th Air Force pilots were willing and would do it...I'm sure the 12th Air Force pilots were willing and would do it...Wash...Rinse...Repeat as often as necessary.

    Yet...you are.
    Your telling the Jews to die under the bombs, your telling the pilots to get killed bombing the Jews.
    The Jews and the pilots would likely tell you "Thanks, all the same...But, we would like to die of old age."
     
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  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    No, you just have not yet opened your mouth and inserted a shoe store. Never fear...I have no doubt you eventually will, as you seem passionate about this subject(just as you were with Donny Trump), so, you will be sloppy(just as you were with Donny Trump), and you will make major mistakes. When, you do, I will be there.


    Operation Anvil was a walk in the park...I'm sure all the Allied casualties would disagree with you.

    Forgot the Italian Campaign? There are those reading and comprehension problems of yours doing you in again...

    Try reading more slowly this time.
    The invasion of Italy was in a different theater of Operations? Odd, I could have sworn that it was in the same theater. The 15th Air Force also was busy supporting the invasion of Southern France - Operation Anvil/Dragoon - I could swear that Southern France is bordered by the Med.
    I did not forget the Italian campaign...It's the opening sentence.

    Regretfully, your inability to read simple sentences and comprehend their meaning has proven beyond your ken...I would suggest a remedial course in Kindergarten, maybe Pre-K.


    Two squadrons out of how many Allied aircraft squadrons??? Two? That's it...I thought you would have at least 20 or 30. But 2?

    I guess you did not know...Big surprise there...But, the 148th Squadron was a transport squadron - They never dropped bomb one. So, I do not know how effective hitting a gas chamber with a canister of supplies will be...But, I am guessing not much. It also looks like they took a bit of a beating doing so.

    No. 1586 (Polish Special Duties) Flight(RAF) also was a transport squadron, and does not appear to have dropped bomb one. So, it is yet another "Kill 'em with supply canisters."

    Maybe, just maybe...You are "thinking outside the box", and you true intent is to bury the Auschwitz gas chambers under a cairn of supply canisters.

    So...Does this qualify as an "open mouth insert shoe store?"...Mistaking 4-engine transports for 4-engine bombers...I will be generous and give you the benefit of the doubt.


    If they were bombing factories...Then how did several barracks and ancillary buildings get destroyed? I'm guessing some or most of the bombs did not land on target.


    That's OK. I'll send them to see the people...Ok, survivors...of the Ijmuiden Raid. Then They can talk to the survivors of the Ploesti Raid. And then they can talk to the people that participated in the September 25th, 1942 Mosquito raid on Oslo. I am sure they will have lots to talk about.


    I believe you were asking what my point was...Not what your claim was.

    Your claim seems to be that it was better for the Jews to die by American bombs than to die by German gas chambers...
     
  18. Otto

    Otto No More Half Measures Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    This isn't The Stump or Free Fire Zone, let's keep ad-hominems out of this area please.
     
  19. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I've been wondering...

    Since .wm seems fixated only on the Auschwitz victims, and how they are the only Holocaust victims deserving of a reprieve.

    I am curious as to why he neglects the victims of all the other extermination camps. He can only believe that they were somehow deserving of their fate or else they were unworthy of the same reprieve that he believes the Auschwitz victims deserved.

    Curious indeed.

    I can only conclude that he is not arguing on principal, otherwise he would be arguing for all Holocaust victims, not just those specifically at Auschwitz. Thus, he is only arguing just to be contrary.
     
  20. green slime

    green slime Member Patron  

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    Agreed.
     

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