Why exactly Afghanistan

Not only allowing an orginization to be based in your territory but activly aiding it when it has attacked another country and plans to or is excuting further such attacks is acting as an accessory to the crime i.e. you are involved in it. One may get away with it for a while but that doesn't change the facts. So you are off base here.

The following post was very good. I'm just going to comment on a small part of it.

One of the problems is that Afganistan has never functioned as a country for any significant period of time. Even under the Taliban there were significant parts where they had little or no sway. So the US didn't really brake it but to prevent the problem from reoccuring fixing it was seen as one of the best options. Whether or not it will be is still in question. For one thing we can only do so much then it's up to the Afghans.

My impression was that several of us here thought you were wrong. I'm not sure any feel insulted. I didn't.

It should be. People need to be disturb every now and then. It actually makes some of them think and at least reinforces the lesson that we all don't see the world the same way.

 

The very nature of the American-NATO deployment in Afghanistan is bound to be controversial, and I personally would be worried if it wasn't 12 years on. It is such a complex issue that it cannot but help being different things to different people.

Real life is never like the movies and television. The "Good Guys" never have things settled by the last reel. That is why there have been American Bases in England, Germany, Japan and South Korea for generations now and as much as we hate the prospect, this will include places like Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan as well.

This is one aspect of being a superpower that most American's do not relish, but accept as a cost of doing business. What perhaps has changed is that we can not be everywhere at once and so need the help of our allies where possible.

Noticed today a report of Japanese SDF's training with USN/USMC forces at an American beach for amphibious exercises, Like it or not we have to pull together now rather than rely upon Uncle Sam for the whole load. This means the US must continue to balance the need to do something with the need to do something acceptable to our allies. It won't always go over well here at home, but we have limited options and so must accept this in many if not most cases.

And you thought holding onto Uncle's Sam's coattails was a chore.

 

Belasar...You know me...You know I'd comment...Why do you personally think the American bases are still in the UK then?

 

Are there not US Personell based in some 4 Air bases and a Naval Base?

According to Wiki there are detachments at 5 RAF Bases, yes officially a RAF base, but these are permanent deployments of US personell.

 

If Al-qaeda really was located in Afghanistan it was CIA who planted it there. But really, isn't it too harsh to make the entire nation suffer that long and so dearly just because several ex-CIA supported fanatics gone frenzy and attacked a fatherland of their former masters? This doesn't make any sense. I simply cannot find a link between such silly aggressiveness and intelligence of people behind all these operations.

My impression is that the hunt after Bin Laden was just an excuse to enter the country and then finish other, more profitable enterprises.

 

This is a rock solid proof that my internet connection works. :circlejerk:

 

Hang on...I'm just consulting the Great British bumper book of insults...I'll be back...Belasar...stand up man...Stop hiding behind Biak.

 

.. were I "venomous" or just "bitchy"?

 

Really? I mean, really?

And yet, to this day, no no such profitable enterprises are evident.

 

If you can't find it, it is because you don't want to. The information is out there. The whole nation was suffering under the Taliban. Initially, after the invasion it did get better. Then we went too passive and allowed the Taliban and Al Queda to regroup. Then we squabbled amongst ourselves over the proper way to run the counter-insurgency. I personally think we've been too PC and that they have a better PR/propoganda arm. We let them dictate the narrative, if we were better at countering their lies public support would not have taken the roller coaster ride that it has. They haven't managed to beat us militarily. Whenever they have tried they've been smacked down. Then they have tried to use attrition through booby-traps and using civilians as shields to even the playing field. Our own overly restrictive ROE has aided them here. When they still fail they use clandestine torture and murder to prevent the civilians from cooperating with the government. When this no longer works they've resorted to infiltrating their personnel into mixed Coalition/Afghani units and attacking the trainers to instill distrust between the western troops and their Afghani counterparts. Virtually all the suffering that the Afghani's have experienced is the result of the Taliban, Al Queda and the drug lords attempting to enforce their will. Western forces have bent over backwards in an attempt to minimize civilian casualties and help better the average Afghani's lot in life. To blame the western troops for the Afghani populace's suffering is like blaming the police for the suffering of the people in a neighborhood controlled by organized crime or a drug gang.

 

As explained above, NO it was not the CIA who planted it there. You could make a case for it being the ISI in many ways but even that takes away some of the responsibility that rest on the Taliban

???? Did you really read the posts above? They have been suffering as a result of the Taliban. Nor was the CIA ever there "masters". Look what the casualty rates are doing as the allies withdraw and as has been mentioned look at who has been killing the most civilians all along, that's without factoring in the fact that there were econmic reasons to inflate casualtys caused by coallition forces. It was very bad there when the Taliban was in charge. The US did help remove the Taliban. The latters attempt to come back has been the problem. Of course I'm not sure life has ever really been "good" there. Certainly it wasn't during the Soviet occupation. In any case Afghanistan has the lowest per capita income in Asia I believe and perhaps on the plannet. Medical treatment was rare and of low quality. The presence of western powers in Afghanistan for the last several years has helped the contry develop significantly increasing education, the availability of medical services, the quality of roads, etc.

???? What an extremely odd impression. How did you come up with that one. What do you think the US was doing there then?

 

I am not hiding behind Biak, he is my loyal minion! He would take a bullet for me and were he to fall I would be quite emotional.

Honestly, there could be tears.

 

The US official explanations look just fine but look at the snippet of an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski twith the “Le Nouvel Observateur” from 1998. It contradicts the US official justification for supporting the mujahedeen in Afghanistan with billions of dollars. According to him the US began covert sponsorship of Muslim extremists five months before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan!

Furthermore, as Brzezinski states, the US officials lied about what they were doing, pretending they were helping freedom fighters resist an invasion.

This is a serious one.

Brzezinski’s Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur

Le Nouvel Observateur: Despite this risk you were a supporter of this covert action? But perhaps you expected the Soviets to enter this war and tried to provoke it?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: It’s not exactly like that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene but we knowingly increased the probability that they would do it.

Le Nouvel Observateur: When the Soviets justified their intervention with the statement that they were fighting against a secret US interference in Afghanistan, nobody believed them. Nevertheless there was a core of truth to this…Do you regret nothing today?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Regret what? This secret operation was an excellent idea. It lured the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you would like me to regret that? On the day when the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote president Carter, in essence:
“We now have the opportunity to provide the USSR with their Viet Nam war.” Indeed for ten years Moscow had to conduct a war that was intolerable for the regime, a conflict which involved the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet Empire.

Le Nouvel Observateur: And also, don’t you regret having helped future terrorists, having given them weapons and advice?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: What is most important for world history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? Some Islamic hotheads or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Le Nouvel Observateur: “Some hotheads?” But it has been said time and time again: today Islamic fundamentalism represents a world-wide threat…

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Rubbish! It’s said that the West has a global policy regarding Islam. That’s hogwash: there is no global Islam. Let’s look at Islam in a rational and not a demagogic or emotional way. It is the first world religion with 1.5 billion adherents. But what is there in common between fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, moderate Morocco, militaristic Pakistan, pro-Western Egypt and secularized Central Asia? Nothing more than that which connects the Christian countries…

 

OBL is dead...even if killed in Pakistan...Took long enough. But the initial mission has been acomplished...Scratch one for our side. And no matter what we discuss on here..and our own individual beliefs on mission creep or whatever..And I have my concerns...
The main issue is settled. OBL is dead.

The rest is pure crap.

We can discuss, do what if's and debate wrongs and rights and casualties, who did what etc...I do see the old war lords are still around waiting...many are now confirmed islamists whatever that description means today.

We are leaving...What we could have done etc, is worthy of debate..However we are leaving...We will leave Afghanistan to turn into what Afghanistan has always been make no mistake.

Our forces have done their duty, and many have died and suffered and will continue to suffer.

If we were in this to "win" anything then no matter what words are put on here...that just has not happened.

We leave it to turn into how we found it.

To many OBL was enough in the end.
To others the question will always be...was it worth it.

Only the dead and the wounded and their relatives can answer that in any worthwhile manner..

Omah is still breathing.

Karazi or whatever, will make no mistake...will follow us out with his tail between his legs.

We may learn something from this...

Personally I don't think so.

 

My dear friend, I am not trying to insult anyone here. I wanted to say just that the financial elite governing the Western democracies is now misusing the tax-payers' money and, more importantly, trust of honest people to attain their own selfish objectives. Both the NATO and the Soviet forces in Afghanistan, regarding their size, appear to me like Mike Tyson biting an ear of a child in a pram. There is noting holly in their deeds. To me, they both are insensitive bastards.

 

Why wouldn't they attack Pakistan too, to be consistent?

 

I never thought you were mate...I though...intend to consult my bumper book, now you have reminded me..and take it to lots of other threads....Only the humerous ones of course...and in context.....Narrr....No one on here who knows us and knows one another could possibly think any of us regulars would insult one another. The media we use is as I always say...not the best form for getting our points across at times.

 

Have you seen what Pakistan has as an Armoury? The Pakistan SIS are indeed responsible for much of this...but no more so than Saudi Arabia..As to your comment OBL was a tool of CIA...Although I can see what others are critisising you on...we should not forget, OBL is a by product of our own history. Going right back to Ollie North and Contras financing...We may not have created OBL, or the circumstances he operated and grew in, but we sure as hell helped him along the way.

 

... but principles are principles, regardless of the size of a task!