Why wasn't the Pacific as "good" as Band of Brothers?

I don't know...

The Pacific is rather linear & fairly easy to follow, essentially connect-the-dots. Remembering the names of all the places can be tough though. The Eastern Front, as well as, the North African campaign had a lot of back-and-fourth movement of the front lines.

Personally, trying to follow the American Civil War can be quite problematic, as some Virginian towns claim to have changed hands of some 50-70 times during the war.

 

I think my comment should have been expanded a little, The following bit...I really meant...from a UK perspective...We are more likely to get involved in the intracacies of the CBI and follow the Pacific as a general history. unfortunately we all suffer from a national centric following in the main...WW2 Being a massive subject we all have to concentrate on the intracices of certain areas...My own mostly the political side of warfare..but it still does not mean we dont have a feel for other areas or admire the folk involved in any lesser way...Personally I hold the US fighting man in high regard in the Pacific...A meat grinder of a war...thjat is why I compare it to Russia.

 

I still think there are a lot of misconceptions that lead to people expecting a particular thing and when it is not as they expected it to be they are disappointed. I think this is the primary difference in the two series.

-First of all the Pacific attempted to follow the Pacific War from the first American ground offensive (Guadalcanal) to the last (Okinawa). If it had been their intent to simply tell the story of the Pacific and follow one unit from first to last they could have followed either 1st or 5th Marines, (1st Marine Division), both units served from first to last. (Btw, Leckie was in 1st Marines and Sledge in 5th Marines). Except for the side story of John Basilone, and the brief sojourn to Iwo Jima to cover his death, they pretty much did proceed in a linear manner.

-Second, the source material. Band of Brothers was based upon a popular historians book. As such, it benefits much from being told from the perspective of an overview, using selected stories from his interviews with the individual veterans to flesh out the story. The Pacific was based upon first person accounts, and as such they have a much more myopic view. They focus more on what the individual serviceman saw, felt, heard, knew or didn't know and as such is not as organized, is more chaotic and somewhat disjointed. It does however have a greater depth of feeling and if you will allow yourself to get into the story, instead of sitting back and critiquing the production as if it were a historical documentary, you'll get a good, contemporary view of what the individual experienced.

Third, is the viewers perception of the characters. When I initially saw Band of Brothers, I knew a few main characters and recognized most of the secondary and tertiary characters, but didn't really know their story. It was only during subsequent viewings that these characters became fleshed out and I understood more about them. It is the same way with The Pacific. On subsequent viewings you'll pick up more on the secondary and tertiary characters and when you see them in different episodes, you'll know them and their background appearances take on meaning within the larger story line. The Gibson character that Leckie runs into and who is locked up in the mental facility at the end of the Cape Gloucester episode is a good example. On rewatching the series you notice Gibson in the background all along and can actually see his mental state slipping. For me Band of Brothers was very similar.

-One of the most common complaints I saw when the series was first airing was complaints about wasting time on the Australia episode. They complained that "Why mess up a war movie with a love story", it could have been better used to show more combat. NO! Read any 1st or 2d Division USMC memoir or watch any movie made about the Marines produced immediately after the war. They all contain segments about the time spent in Australia and New Zealand. It was an important part of what those Marines experienced. Leave it out and the story is only half told. "Sands of Iwo Jima", "Battle Cry", "Until They Sail", all have the Australia/New Zealand.

I guess what it finally comes down to is personal preference, similar to people having different tastes in music and art. That being said, I personally think "The Pacific" was the better series. I own them both and have watched them both several times, Band of Brothers more times, but that's because I've had it longer.

 

I like them both. I suppose BoB is more linear since it follows one company of men from training to Normandy until the end of the war. I suppose it's easier to put yourself into that film and "participate."

The Pac is broader since the nature of the war there was broader - a series of island hopping campaigns, each one distinct and a story in itself. USMCPrice above, calls the Basilone bit a "side story" and I have to agree. Perhaps the series would have been better just following Leckie and Sledge (the 1st and 5th Marines). I liked it anyway and don't feel the need to nitpick it.

Both of these series are attempts to tell the real story and as such, they rise above 99% of war films.

 

The Pacific, like Band of Brothers before it were exceptionally fine miniseries that covered the Second World War in a way that had never been attempted before, and yet I too felt a measure of disappointment upon viewing the series originally, and because of this feeling I have felt no where near the same urgency to purchase the DVD as I did with BoB.

Part of the problem, in my humble opinion, is timing. Had The Pacific aired first I suspect that for many there would be less of a sense that it somehow fell short compared to BoB. I think most would still feel BoB was "better" overall, but that HBO had gone from great show to even greater show. A glass half full as opposed to half empty kind of situation.

The second issue (IMO) stems from the opening credits. BoB used brief moving segments of the series that were alternately heroic and sad, ending with a hero shot of the principle cast silhouetted against a crest. Veteran, tired and yet determined. The Pacific used a similar approach in a pencil drawing but ending with the pencil slowly being pushed to the breaking point, upon which the lead tip shattering. A metaphor for something capable of greatness being forced to the breaking point? To be honest I always felt a little depressed as we went into the story after the opening.

The multiple story lines are an issue I'm afraid. Dick Winters was the anchor of BoB, but we had three anchor's in The Pacific, each with their own satellite characters and with Basilone, two different groups of satellite characters. Overall the sense of continuity for BoB, even when Winter's is off screen is simply more fluid than The Pacific.

For most of us the familiarity with the European war is simply greater than that of the Pacific. Further the idea of going to a European battlefield is by an order of magnitude greater than a Pacific war battle site. Most American Presidents at some point go to Normandy for a D-Day anniversary, but how many ever got past Pearl Harbor? Has any ever visited Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima or Okinawa?

The ending in a way was something of a let down. In BoB we saw American troops streaming into Germany, past "endless" lines of German soldiers trudging to the rear and PoW camps. We saw a "Death" camp liberated, and were given a visceral reason of why there was such a sacrifice needed. Easy Company picking though the remains of Hitler's home in Bavaria and among the people of a defeated Reich.

In The Pacific we see the end of Okinawa and almost like a Dues ex Machina we're told a Atomic bomb ended the war and everybody went home. I know that's how it happened, but there was no sense that we defeated the Empire of Japan as was shown in Band of Brothers.

For some this will seem nitpicking, but from little acorns, mighty oaks are grown.

 

-I really felt like John Basilone was just "there" not given that much of a treatment. But he was portrayed very well by Jon Seda. I'm surprised they didn't shoehorn Mitchell Paige. I often felt, Sid Phillips was a really important character. I think they stopped being friends after the war. The nice part about episode 5 was the transition from Leckie to Sledge. When Sledge sees his friend go away on the boat, it was great. THe camera angle shown Sledge to be a small man who is going to have a thrill of his life. I also liked the sojourn on Iwo Jima which gave us a taste of the Chuck Norris style badass motherf***ery.
-That's the difference. Its sad that TP did not have much coherent hero Miniseriesness as BoB. BoB was able to diversify but they still felt like a single unit. As opposed to TP, which was scattered and fragmented. Almost as if you were watching psychological memories. The Pacific really is more of a psychological character study rather than a war drama. Thats why i like it so much.
-I'm not as perceptive as you are
-i agree

 

I'll have to disagree with this, I think your post is extremely perceptive. Hence the salute.

I have my opinions as to why they included Basilone, I think they did it for good reasons. I also think they gave him ample coverage, given the scope of the film and I agree with you that Jon Seda did a very good job of portraying him.
Why I think they included Basilone:
1.) Ability to show some of the Home Front, because of his Bond Tour appearances.
2.) As you said, it's a "psychological character study". Basilone was a very good example. First, he was a consumate professional. Second, in the action for which he received his Medal of Honor, it was heroic and not heroic at the same time. What he did was epic in it's proportions. His individual acts during the action were not what would be considered classically heroic. He didn't wave a flag, give a heroic speach, draw a sword and lead a charge. The situation was critical, he remained calm and proficient, extremely focused, almost insanely logical. When all around him were on the verge of panic, he in his tunnel vision, focused on simple individual tasks that when added together bordered on the incredible. Position over run, grab one of your guns, a couple of Marines, go there and replace it. Field of fire blocked, clear it. Never mind the several hundred Japanese shooting at you and heading in your direction. Guns low on ammo. Leave your gunners firing and go get them some more. Run into some Japanese blocking your way. Kill them and continue on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SQqVEu135E

Basilone Guadalcanal

The next morning, dead Japanese as far as the eye can see and he's focused on routine details. I think a small scene that says volumes, is when he's in Australia and riding in the back of the truck and the little Australian kid is following on his bike and asks Basilone, "Hey Yank, kill any Japs?"
If there is one thing that makes most combat veterans uncomfortable or angry, its when people ask "how many people you kill?"
Then you have his drinking and fighting. His drinking and whoring when in Hollywood. His mental issues, from him being home safe and his Marines still being overseas. He finally finds someone that understands him and he starts to heal mentally. Then he's suddenly gone, dead, ain't never coming back.
3.) Iwo Jima is arguably the most famous Pacific battle. The iconic photograph and all. By including Basilone and following him, you can give a taste of Iwo. You don't have to go too far into the battle because he died early on the first day.
4.) If you look at history from a contemporaneous view. Basilone, when he got his MOH was arguably one of the most famous men in the country. Guadalcanal had occupied the headlines for months, the public focused on the drama every day. During the battle the Japanese were still perceived as Supermen. Politicians and Generals worried that the Marines would be wiped out or surrender. The situation on the island and on the seas surrounding were epic. The public knew the names and exploits of most of the tiny Cactus Air Force that tried to retain control of the air. Desperate sea battles were occuring on a regular basis. American involvement in the European/MTO was not very extensive, with the invasion of North Africa having occured just a few months prior, in November of 1942. Between Pearl Harbor and late 1942 there was not a lot of good news and not a lot of living heroes. There were a few living Navy and Marine Corps pilots with the MOH, most were familiar household names "Butch" O'Hare, Joe Foss, etc.. A bunch of dead sailors, and pilots. Jimmy Doolittle of the Doolittle Raid, Lt. Commander Bulkeley whose PT's evacuated MacArthur from the Phillipines then Vandegrift who was heading to Washington to become Marine Corps Commandant. Merritt Edson, leader of the Raiders, real hero, but not exactly movie star material. Then Mitchell Paige and Basilone, similar incredible actions, on two consecutive nights. Paige was commissioned when the division was sent back to Australia, Basilone with his Hollywood looks, straight out of central casting, was sent home to be paraded in front of the civilians, to boost their morale and sell War Bonds.
5.) By including Basilone you have a tie in to Chesty Puller. You really can feel how bad Peleilu was when you see the scene where the combative, motivated Puller is coming down off the Pelilu ridges with whats left of his 1st Marines and he looks like a zombie. "Chuckler" is coming down off the ridge on a stretcher, in a state of shock, no longer the same man. Leckie, Runner and Hoosier are wounded and evacuated. "Gunny" Haney, old Corps Marine, veteran of the WWI battle of Belleau Wood, where the Marines lost more men than in the previous 143 years combined, where Marines fought in poison gas, hand to hand with bayonets, breaks down and has a mental collapse. You get the feeling that the "Old" Corps, the pre-war, WWI, Guadalcanal Marines are all gone, wounded, dead, mentally broken. The new "War Time" Corps is carrying on, carrying the fight forward.


Belleau Wood

6.) The scene with Lena Basilone, sitting on the beautiful, quiet, peaceful cliffs looking out across the Pacific, while her new husband is landing on Iwo Jima,soon to be dead, an ugly black sulphurous place, chaos, death, and deafening noise everywhere. You get a feeling for what those at home waiting on their loved ones feel, the waiting and wondering. Speaking from a personal perspective, the waiting and wondering is terrible. When the older son was in Iraq and they were losing Marines and multiple Marines everyday. You couldn't sleep at night because everytime headlights would come down your road you worried they would stop at your house. A knock at the door from the casualty notification team in the middle of the night is your worst fear. Then some nights you'd get a call from the Family Readiness Officer, they'd tell you the unit has had a casualty or casualties, but your Marine is fine. Then the nights when there were no phone calls you worried that everyone else was getting the "your Marine is fine call" and a casualty notification team was on the way to your house. Having also been the deployed Marine, that's not as worrisome. You're confident in your abilities and those of your fellow Marines, if something bad happens let it be quick and not too painful. Part of it is being very young and feeling immortal.
You also get the impression, same ocean, two diametrically opposed ends of the spectrum. Heaven and Hell existing at the same moment in time. The scence near his death where the tells the two machine gunners to set up their weapon here and tells them, "do not leave this position come hell or high water. Do you understand me!" is pure Marine Corps, and pure Gunnery Sgt.
7.) This is something I didn't notice because it wasn't anything impressive to me, I saw it and lived it on a daily basis in the Marine Corps, PT in the ground side of the FMF is a religion, but a friend of mine that watched the series made a comment on what good shape Basilone was in during the portion where he's returned to the FMF and is training up marines to deploy. So the use of Basilone in a training environment, later in the series, fills a gap, because unlike band of Brothers, where the initial episode was about their training, The Pacific did not cover that aspect initially.

As for why not covering Mitchell Paige? His story was too similar to Basilone's, and given the time constraints it would have been redundant and without some previous tie in would have made what many feel is a hard to follow story line, even harder to follow.
One of my early criticisms of the series was that I felt they spent too little time on certain aspects. I felt there was a lot of the Battle for Guadalcanal that should have been covered more in depth. Too much was left unexplained. Someone with less knowledge of the battle wouldn't understand certain things that were shown. In retrospect, they made the correct decision. It was not a documentary of the battle. For instance the Marines saw the flashes and sounds from the Battle of Savo Island. They didn't really know what was or had happened. All they knew was the next day the Navy was gone and they were stranded, short of everything. This is how much of the battle is depicted, from the individual Marine's and not the historian's or general's perspective. Another scene that I thought was really well done is when the Marines went back aboard the transports, they didn't know that anyone at home, knew or cared what they had done at Guadalcanal. As far as they knew, it was as unknown a name and place as it had been to them before they'd arrived. They were worn down, sick and weak, and when the messman on the ship gives them coffee and tells them "they're heroes back home". They had no idea, no clue, that what they'd done and experienced mattered to anyone but their fellow Marines.

Guadalcanal Heroes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62GEkRz5fgo

Basilone's Death
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyZUSPJC6Lc

The end of the Basilone's death segment reminded me of a quote I'd read from one of the captured Japanese at Tarawa, as reported by Robert Sherrod. Admiral Keiji Shibazaki, famously told his troops defending Betio Island, Tarawa, that "it would take a million men,100 years to take the island". The Japanese troops were well trained and very confident. Sherrod quoted one of the survivors as having been asked when he had first realized that the battle might be lost. The survivor reportedly replied, very early in the battle, when they kept killing the Americans in the water, (wading ashore) but they never stopped coming.

I do think there were differing perspectives used. BoB again had more of the overview, the more conventional, heroic story, similar to war movies from the 50's and 60's. The Pacific more thoughtful, a hint of anti-war, more along the lines of "All Quiet on the Western Front". I think the best, most realistic war movies are those that capture the love/hate relationship, of soldiers and war. You can swing too far to the thoughtful, anti-war theme and end up with garbage like the 1998 version of "The Thin Red Line", or just enough of it to end up with a classic like 1930's "All Quiet on the Western Front" or 1926's "What Price Glory".

 

4. despite the largeness of the PTO, why is Tom Hanks making masters of the air about the Eighth Air Force? Why not a movie about the Nisei Pilot who was the only Japanese to serve in the PTO? Also, why not about the Cactus Air Force or the Marine Leathernecks? My answer to myself is that the Eighth Army Air Force is meant to be his last one and that the Eighth Army Air Force has been forgotten in some sense. Largely most of the air wars are. My only wish is that somebody do a movie on the Chinese Americans in the CBI. Or maybe the japanese translators that worked with american forces. If the PTO was the major attention grabber before 1943, as well as the major theater, when did people start their fascination on the ETO as well as slightly dominate the other theaters in memory and hagiography? Why does the PTO tend to house more psychological stuff? Why do PTO movies tend to suck?
5.I thought that moment was greatly embodied when Sledge and his friend were smoking a cigarette with a lighter from Gunny Haney. It was a good passing the torch scene. The other scene was when Runner says "lets go home" The ending of episode 7 itself when the guadalcanal cast (save for hoosier) were all on the shit going home. There was a soap opera moment. Coincidently- a lot of guadalcanal marines' last campaign was peleliu. Peleliu was the start of a lot of the PTO soldiers and marines service. I don't know how many guadalcanal soldiers only served on guadalcanal. A lot of them would be reassigned to other units and to fight in tinia, tarawa and new guinea.

 

Well after readiing this thread I've borrowed the Blu-ray boxset of my mate & will start viewing it soon.
Think I shall watch the disc of extras first to get the true story before watched the dramatic version.

 

Good, we expect a fresh, un-biased and cleverly worded report sometimes next week from you.

 

Will ''it was alright I suppose'' do?

 

Yes, but with gusto....

 

Good for you Owen. I know I have loaned mine to several people, on my set you have the option to turn the Historical background and vet interviews on or off. I suggest you watch it with them turned on, the little short intro really helps put the episode into context. I had one friend start watching the series with his wife and they watched the first two episodes with this feature turned off and when we were talking, he asked me a question and I said something about, that being covered in the intro, he looked at me and said, "what intro?" He turned them on and re-watched the first two episodes and got a lot more out of them.

Hang in there, during the initial airing a lot of people complained about the Australia episode, they didn't feel like it belonged in a WWII series. Historically, they are wrong. I have seldom read a WWII Marine book or movie, involving the 1st or 2d Marine Divisions where the time spent in Australia and or New Zealand didn't figure prominently.

The Okinawa episode to me was emotionally exhausting. The way each battle in the series is filmed, each becomes worse than the one before. Watching it you get that feeling without ever having to actually be told, "historically the closer the allies got to Japan the harder the battle."

The final coming home episode does a very good job of wrapping the series up and tells what became of the Marines and shows the actor that portrayed them next to a photo of the real Marine.
It also does a very good job of dealing with the emotional after effects.

Here's a scene where Sledge is having nightmares after his return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUSkkDUpi1Q

You've also got to pay close attention and read a lot into some scenes. They didn't make the series for lazy viewers. They managed to fit so much realism into the dialog and actions of the characters, much of it is understated. In this scene Gunny Haney is checking in with his Marines, he's trying to make sure they are alert and know what to do. Many including Sledge are new and they're all scared. First he's checking on his men, making sure weapons are ready, letting them know they need to be ready with one in the chamber. Then he uses himself as an example to warn them not to be complacent and rely on the dog to give warning of the Japanese. Then he let's them know what they need to do if the Japanese attack, "the nips come through here at high port with fixed bayonets. You nail them with flare and HE as fast as you can.." Then he makes sure Sledge, the new guy, knows what to do. Snafu starts, to answer, but Gunny cuts him off, Snafu is a veteran, he should know what to do. The whole "woof" thing Gunny does is to cut the tension, put the men at ease, take their focus off their fears. It works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=067RjrqesaQ

The lemonade scene. The Marines are just returning to Pavuvu after all that the brutality and death of Peleilu and there are Red Cross girls giving out drinks. How do you transition from the brutality back to civilization? The boot Lieutenant, hasn't yet seen action, after he makes his comment to Sledge, he looks into Sledge's cold dead eyes and realizes he has made a mistake. It's all expressed by the look on his face, his body language.
The actor that plays Sledge describes what is going on in the scene.
"A little cup of water from a pretty girl is such an inadequate consolation for going through 2 months of hell. And on another level, he hated them, he hated their pureness and innocence and naiveté in a place like Pavuvu. He hated that he could never feel that way again, the way they do, after what he had seen. He could never go back to the innocent, pure guy that he was. And lastly, he didn’t recognize them. They were like aliens. They didn’t fit in amongst the muck, the death, and the brutality of war, which was all he knew anymore." -Joe Mazzello
This clip gives short segments of the Peleilu battle, that covered the majority of three episodes, and shows the end of the Lemonade scene, to place it in proper context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mel9s2IXKHg

BTW, Joe Mazzello did such a good job of portraying Sledge, that Sledge's widow gave him Sledge's pipe that he had carried all through the war and had kept all the years afterwards.

I'm looking forward to discussing your impressions of it!

 

The end of Band Of Brothers was a lot different. But the endings were the same with Sledge holding a flower and baseball game were nice.

BoB ending was kinda uplifting. If you can compare shows, The Pacific is Mad Men (understated, psychological) while Band of Brothers was Breaking Bad (really well made and popular as well as more uplifting)

Compare and Contrast the intros

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1DosMJafGk

This one is really Solemn and heroic. In defiance of evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmAiNG2Lxk
This one is like a triumphant homage to the Marines. But it also feels like the person orchestrating this is in remiscent.

BoB is a challenge and triumph
Pacific is a Memory.

I think the show should have been called "The Old Breed."

 

Now I have to watch it again, lol. I've been inspired.

 

Another thing that needs to be considered. Most people are more comfortable with Band of Brothers style. As the original poster (LG'96)said, "While Both are excellent, Band feels a lot more cohesive and movie like." Band of Brothers was closer to the types of WWII movies we are used to.
Here's part of a negative review for the series:
"Finally, I am no wilting flower but parts of the series were about as grim as war movies get. This is by no means a knock on the series - as I believe these scenes were accurately portrayed as the men wrote them - but it added to my general sense of discomfort. I have only sympathy for the men who were asked to fight in those horrendous conditions, and to see this fighting portrayed on screen was powerful indeed. I'm glad the creators undertook this effort to honor these men, and I'm glad I watched the series once to gain an appreciation of the veterans who fought in the Pacific; .... I'm not sure I'd want to view the series again."

War is grim and brutal, it should make people uncomfortable. This brings us to another question, movies are a form of entertainment, do we sanitize war movies to make them more entertaining? On the other hand one of Hank's and Speilberg's motivations was to tell the veterans stories. Can you really, fully, appreciate the veteran if you minimize aspects of the story to make it more comfortable for the viewer?
One reason veterans are hesitant to discuss their experiences in depth, except with other veterans, is that you really can't explain things without a common point of reference. It's like trying to explain something to someone that speaks a totally different language. Maybe a little more "discomfort" would help the average person understand better.

 

Another thing to consider is that BoB came out first, and it was a hard act to follow. Anything short of cinematic excellence would not stand a farts chance in a wind tunnel along side of it. Although The Pacific was extremely well made, the choppiness of the stories mixed together did not allow a flowing story line as easy to follow as BoB did.

 

Just watched the bonus disc from the boxed set.
Now I remember I did half heartedly watch some episodes when it was on TV over here few years ago.
Was bit fed up with war stuff & was tried of watching yet more killing & wounding so wasn't really get into it.
Now I know the background to the main characters I'll start watching it all next week & pay more attention.
Glad they decided to depict life after the war & show how the men were affected.

 

Just watched first 2 episodes.
Wish I watched it years ago now.
Got histroical notes on as suggested at the beginning .
Helps understand what going on bit better.

 

Its good isn't it Owen....Fills a hole in my understanding of Pacific anyway.