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Worst generals

Discussion in 'Leaders of World War 2' started by me262 phpbb3, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    >Patton was allowed to waltz

    After the Bulge Montgomery's proposal was for a three-pronged attack in his northern sector, which would put his armies at the Rhine ready to drive into the heart of Germany. Basically, the Canadian 1st Army at the northern end of the front would drive behind the Germans in the Siegfried Line, with the U.S. 9th Army driving northeast to the Rhine, where it would hold while the British 2nd Army moved between the two in preparation for an attack across the Rhine. He envisioned this as the sole attack on the Rhine, requiring high priorities in logistical and other support. American strategists believed that there must be more than one assault over the Rhine, in case "Monty" bogged down. Bradley also was concerned that the northern preparations -- it having been agreed that Montgomery would have first priority -- would reveal the intent for his attack, and that the Germans would reinforce their defenses on Montgomery’s "front from the Eiffel where Patton had been instructed to hold defensively on his line. There George had been probing the Siegfried Line with small feeler attacks, not in preparation for a major offensive but primarily because he found it impossible to sit still. For the Third Army v.4.ewed defensive warfare as something to be shunned at all costs." With Eisenhower’s consent Patton was ordered to mount an offensive “not so strong as to arouse the objections of Monty.” Who would see it as a move to detract from-his own major operation, even though it had the purpose of reducing enemy reinforcements to meet his imminent attack Patton's orders were to advance quietly to the Kyll, a mountain-stream that paralleled the Luxembourg border, 12 miles beyond the German frontier. There he was to seize a bridgehead in anticipation of a full-scale advance on the Rhine. But this later phase was not to begin until Monty was safely anchored on the Rhine. . Rather than directly disobey SHAEF's written orders consigning him-to the defensive, Patton termed his Third Army operations in the Eiffel an 'aggressive defense,' Patton deliberately exceeded his orders, moving at once. Bradley treated this "insubordination" humorously.344


    He was indeed, not allowed to 'waltz', he merely violently destroyed everything in his path and did it anyway, whilst Monty, "bogged down", like at Caen etc , etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum
     
  2. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Brad, I have crossed the Rhine, welll OK George, Ike said stop before Berlin.

    Yes Sure, is that a suburb of Moscow?
     
  3. GP

    GP New Member

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    That is about right with america and geography. :lol:
     
  4. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    On the night of 23 March, after the XII Corps' triumphant assault of the Rhine, Bradley took great pleasure in announcing his success to the world. The 12th Army Group commander boasted that American troops could cross the Rhine anywhere, without aerial bombardment or airborne troops, a direct jab at Montgomery whose troops were at that very moment preparing to launch their own Rhine assault following an intense and elaborate aerial and artillery preparation and with the assistance of two airborne divisions.

    Field Marshal Montgomery was, of course, exhibiting his now legendary meticulous and circumspect approach to such enterprises, a lesson he learned early in his North African duels with Rommel and one he could not easily forget. Thus, as his forces had approached the east bank of the river, Montgomery proceeded with one of the most intensive buildups of materiel and manpower of the war. His detailed plans, code-named Operation PLUNDER, were comparable to the Normandy invasion in terms of numbers of men and tons of equipment, supplies, and ammunition to be used. The 21 Army Group had 30 full-strength divisions, 11 each in the Second British and Ninth U.S. Armies and 8 in the First Canadian Army, providing Montgomery with more than 1,250,000 men.

    PLUNDER called for the Second Army to cross at three locations along the 21 Army Group front—at Rees, Xanten, and Rheinberg. The crossings would be preceded by several weeks of aerial bombing and a final massive artillery preparation. The heavy bombing campaign, known as the Interdiction of Northwest Germany, was designed primarily to destroy the lines of communication and supply connecting the Ruhr to the rest of Germany. The main targets were rail yards, bridges, and communication centers, with a secondary focus on fuel-processing and storage facilities and other important industrial sites. During the three days leading up to Montgomery's attack, targets in front of the 21 Army Group zone and in the Ruhr area to the southeast were pummeled by about 11,000 sorties, effectively sealing off the Ruhr while easing the burden on Montgomery's assault forces.



    >Field Marshal Montgomery was, of course, exhibiting his now legendary meticulous and circumspect approach to such enterprises

    Poor Monty Bradley hurt his feelings when Georgie accidently crossed the Rhine.

    Patton did not believe in 'planning' he believed in destroying the enemy before THEY had a chance to plan.
     
  5. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Yep, Monty could not find the maps past Caen..or see that the one road to Eindoven left him a sitting duck..
     
  6. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Bradley treated this "insubordination" humorously.344

    OOPPS < I just took half of Czechoslavakia

    lol
     
  7. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Three grand operations were planned to start in late February and early March 1945 to clear the West Bank of the Rhine of German troops in preparation for the eventual Rhine crossing by Allied armies. These operations were Veritable in the north, which was typically a Monty operation and which cost a lot of men because of weather and inundations; then Grenade and Lumberjack further south, to be carried out be American armies. All these operations were to be started shortly after one another in an attempt to completely throw the Germans into confusion. However, due to a few days' delay between the start of Veritable and the other two operations, the Germans had time to move all available troops north into Monty's sector believing it was the only push.

    So the above is simply not true: while Monty was indeed planning a major attack for his own armies, Patton and Simpson would also be starting their own offensives and in no way was Monty going to be the one to steal the honour.

    By the way Stonewall, it seems that you're quoting from a source, would you mind mentioning it? Thanks!
     
  8. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Yes, I can find the source..



    Consider theis

    Monty lost 6,000 men..

    The two American offensive's lost 15,000 men..

    Not much of a waltz..


    lemme find the back up
     
  9. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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  10. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    another explaination

    Now General Eisenhower was ready for his final offensive into Germany. Montgomery's 21st Army Group would carry the heaviest weight of the assault. His three armies would cross the Rhine north of the Ruhr River, then sweep eastward across the north German plain. Eisenhower expected that the war would end when units of the 21st Army Group reached Berlin or made contact with the Russians near the German capital. Since most of the Allied supplies would go to Montgomery, General Bradley's 12th Army Group and General Devers' 6th Army Group were only expected to keep the Germans too busy to interfere with the great assault. General Eisenhower did not intend that these two groups should make any spectacular drives such as they had carried out in the Rhineland.

    Montgomery's grand attack was to get started on 23 March with a river-crossing over the Rhine near Wesel. The British general had been carefully preparing for that attack during the two weeks when the American 1st, 3rd,and 7th armies had been fighting in the Rhineland further south.

    Most of the American generals did not agree with General Eisenhower's plan to have Montgomery's army group make the main attack. They felt that the American armies should have an important part in the final defeat of Germany. For this reason, General Bradley planned to have Hodges' 1st Army make as strong an attack from the Remagen Bridgehead as the limited Allied supplies would permit.

    Then suddenly, on 22 March, just one day before Montgomery was scheduled to cross, General Patton made a full-scale assault over the Rhine at Oppenheim. It came as a surprise not only to the Germans but to most of the Allies. Although Patton's 3rd Army had been marching and fighting steadily for more than a month, Patton had planned carefully* for this attack, and his divisions assembled quickly for the crossing. General Patton made this river-crossing without orders, but he was not being disobedient. He had never been told he should not cross the Rhine.

    The following day the British 2nd and American 9th armies crossed the Rhine at Wesel, in Montgomery's carefully planned well-conducted attack. They were opposed by considerably larger and better prepared German forces than those Patton had brushed aside. Nevertheless, the British and American soldiers soon had themselves established on the east bank of the Rhine, and on 25 March Montgomery started a full-scale sweep into the North German plain. On the same day Hodges' 1st Army broke out of the Remagen Bridgehead, and by 28 March three major Allied spearheads were sweeping deep into Central Germany.


    The Military History of World War 11:volume 2;Trevor Nevitt Dupuy;Franklin Watts inc.; 1962


    *Patton had been secretly collecting bridging equipment for months.



    http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quart ... hine1.html
     
  11. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    yet another

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A1143514

    Operation Veritable was launched by the Canadian 1st Army, together with 2nd Army's 30th Corps, on 8 February 1945. Canadian forces advanced along a 12km (seven-mile) front south of Nijmegen. After a hard fought advance, at the end of February the second phase of the overall operation began: Operation Grenade, an advance from the south by US 9th Army.

    The Canadian and US Armies under British Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery's command were now attacking the last German positions west of the Rhine. While the Germans fought hard and retreated in good order, by 10 March the Allies were on the west bank of the Rhine. Veritable was over; it had cost 6,000 casualties, most of them British.

    On the night of 23 March, Operation Plunder saw 2nd Army crossing the Rhine along a 20km (twelve-mile) front, with the Canadian 1st Army in the rear. The first wave across the river used armoured amphibious vehicles and tanks fitted with flotation devices. There were no serious setbacks. At 10am the next day, in Operation Varsity, Ridgway's 18th Airborne landed two divisions eight kilometres (five miles) behind enemy lines. By nightfall the airborne and amphibious troops had linked up; by midnight the first light bridge across the Rhine was complete and the way was clear for the final advance into Germany. Six weeks later, Montgomery received the unconditional surrender of German forces.

    About the author
    Phil Edwards is a freelance writer and researcher specialising in 20th-century history. He is currently doing research on post-war Italy at Salford University.


    bbc
     
  12. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    pretty stupid, the way it is written

    >Montgomery received the unconditional surrender

    >The Canadian and US Armies under British Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery's command

    >first light bridge across the Rhine was complete



    hahahahaha


    If you did not know better, you could be entirely mislead..

    Frist bridge for Montgomery, last for every one else..

    Th US Army, sure, one of the US Armies, Montgomery commended 1 of them, for a while.. Monty had one, Ike had many
     
  13. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    ACT OF MILITARY SURRENDER

    We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control.

    The German High Command will at once issue orders to all German military, naval and air authorties and to all forces under German control to cease active operations at 2301 hours Central European time on 8 May and to remain in the positions occupied at that time. No ship, vessel, or aircraft is to be scuttled, or any damage done to their hull, machinery or equipment.

    The German High Command will at once issue to the appropriate commander, and ensure the carrying out of any further orders issued by the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and by the Soviet High Command.

    This act of military surrender is without prejudice to, and will be superseded by any general instrument of surrender imposed by, or on behalf of the United Nations and applicable to GERMANY and the German armed forces as a whole.

    In the event of the German High Command or any of the forces under their control failing to act in accordance with this Act of Surrender, the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and the Soviet High Command will take such punitive or other action as they deem appropriate.

    Signed at RHEIMS at 0241 on the 7th day of May, 1945. France
    On behalf of the German High Command.

    JODL

    IN THE PRESENCE OF

    On behalf of the Supreme Commander,
    Allied Expeditionary Force.
    W. B. SMITH

    On behalf of the Soviet High Command
    SOUSLOPAROV

    F SEVEZ
    Major General, French Army
    (Witness)

    http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/gs3.htm



    I SUPPOSE HE HAD THE GERMANS SURRENDER TO HIM SOMEPLACE TOO.


    I doubt it said 'all German forces', Supreme Aillied Command on it though. ;)
     
  14. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Over the course of the North-West Europe Campaign, the 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 15th US Armies have all been under the command of Montgomery at some point or other. Though there were never more than three at a time, and the 7th Army has never been under his command.
     
  15. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    hmm, when was the 3rd Army under Montys command in NW Europe?

    Patton, under Monty...


    are you sure?

    Patton would have shot himself first..


    After shooting Brad and Ike...

    I am sorry, I just don't remember that part..

    The south side of the Ardennes was American contolled and I don't remmber the Brits having more that 1,400 men in the Bulge anyway..

    and that was later on
     
  16. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    another tale on the story

    The Central Europe Campaign
    Page 2

    For several reasons Eisenhower began to readjust these plans toward the end of March. First, his headquarters received reports that Soviet forces held a bridgehead over the Oder River, a mere 30 miles from Berlin. Since the Allied armies on the Rhine were more than 300 miles from Berlin, with the Elbe River still to be crossed 200 miles ahead, it seemed clear that the Soviets would capture Berlin long before the western Allies could reach it. Eisenhower thus turned his attention to other objectives, most notably a rapid junction with the Soviets to cut the German Army in two and prevent any possibility of a unified Nazi defense effort. Once this was accomplished the remaining German forces could be defeated in detail.

    In addition, there was the matter of the Ruhr. Although the Ruhr area still contained a significant number of enemy troops and enough industry to retain its importance as a major objective, Allied intelligence reported that much of the region's armament industry was moving southeast, deeper into Germany. This increased the importance of the southern offensives across the Rhine.

    Also focusing Eisenhower's attention on the southern drive was concern over the "National Redoubt." According to rumor, Hitler's most fanatically loyal troops were preparing to make a lengthy, last-ditch stand in the natural fortresses formed by the rugged alpine mountains of southern Germany and western Austria. If they held out for a year or more, dissension between the Soviet Union and the western Allies might give them political leverage for some kind of favorable peace settlement. In reality, by the time of the Allied Rhine crossings the Wehrmacht had suffered such severe defeats on both the Eastern and Western Fronts that it could barely manage to mount effective delaying actions, much less muster enough troops to establish a well organized alpine resistance force. Still, Allied intelligence could not entirely discount the possibility that remnants of the German Army would attempt a suicidal last stand in the Alps. Denying Hitler's forces this opportunity became another argument for rethinking the role of the southern drive through Germany.

    Perhaps the most compelling reason, though, for increasing the emphasis on this southern drive had more to do with the actions of Americans than those of Germans. While Montgomery was carefully and cautiously planning for the main thrust in the north, complete with massive artillery preparation and an airborne assault, American forces in the south were displaying the kind of basic aggressiveness that Eisenhower wanted to see. On 7 March elements of Lt. Gen. Courtney H. Hodges' First Army had captured a bridge over the Rhine at Remagen and had been steadily expanding the bridgehead.

    To the south in the Saar-Palatinate region, Lt. Gen. George S. Patton's Third Army had dealt a devastating blow to the German Seventh Army and, in conjunction with the U.S. Seventh Army, had nearly destroyed the German First Army. In five days of battle, from 18-22 March, Patton's forces captured over 68,000 Germans. These bold actions eliminated the last German positions west of the Rhine. Although Montgomery's drive was still planned as the main effort, Eisenhower believed that the momentum of the American forces to the south should not be squandered by having them merely hold the line at the Rhine or make only limited diversionary attacks beyond it. By the end of March the Supreme Commander thus leaned toward a decision to place more responsibility on his southern forces. The events of the first few days of the final campaign would be enough to convince him that this was the proper course of action.





    US. Seventh Army infantrymen climb the enemy-held east


    bank after crossing the Rhine. (National Archives)


    Operations

    On 19 March Eisenhower told Bradley to prepare the First Army for a breakout from the Remagen bridgehead anytime after 22 March. The same day, in response to the Third Army's robust showing in the Saar-Palatinate region, and in order to have another strong force on the Rhine's east bank guarding the First Army's flank, Bradley gave Patton the go-ahead for an assault crossing of the Rhine as soon as possible.

    These were exactly the orders for which Patton had hoped. The aggressive American general felt that if a sufficiently strong force could be thrown across the river and significant gains made, then Eisenhower might transfer responsibility for the main drive through Germany from Montgomery's 21 Army Group to Bradley's 12th. Patton also appreciated the opportunity he now had to beat Montgomery across the river and win for the Third Army the coveted distinction of making the first assault crossing of the Rhine in modern history. To accomplish this, he had to move quickly.

    http://www.world-war-2-history.com/campaigns-page/4/2/
     
  17. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    For operation Overlord Montgomery was in charge of all Allied land forces, which for a time also included 3rd Army. Patton soon began to grumble and when Overlord was officially completed on September 1st 1944, Eisenhower relieved Montgomery of his position but gave him the rank of Field Marshal in return.

    The entire British 30th Corps was eventually moved to the Ardennes area as a second line of defence, several divisions being committed in the counterattack mounted by Montgomery on January 5th. The British took about 1200 casualties in this battle.
     
  18. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    Overlord Montgomery





    I THOUGHT YOU SAID NORTH WEST EUROPE.. Holland Denmark, Benelux.

    Patton was south of Paris...

    caps off


    Anyway we were talking about spring 1945, not spring 1944,






    pretty stupid, the way it is written

    >Montgomery received the unconditional surrender

    >The Canadian and US Armies under British Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery's command

    >first light bridge across the Rhine was complete
     
  19. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    The North-West Europe campaign is basically the land forces element of ETO. It involves everything after the Invasion.

    I don't really understand what you mean by the rest of your post, where is that written and what is your point about it? That it's not true, which is so, but to what purpose?
     
  20. Stonewall phpbb3

    Stonewall phpbb3 New Member

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    The point is that this was a comment that is basically wrong..

    >Meanwhile Patton was allowed to waltz across the area west of the Rhine further south and capture an unguarded bridge


    The massive force under Eisenhower's command had attained the battle experi-ence of a professional army; it was superior to the Wehrmacht both in manpower and materiel. On V-E Day Eisenhower would have under his command more than four and a half million troops: 91 divisions (61 of which were American), 6 tactical air commands, and 2 strategic air forces. In this volume appears a reckoning of the total Allied effort in the West and the human cost accumulated between D-day and V-E Day. In these months a total of 5,412,219 Allied troops had entered the European Theater of Operations, along with 970,044 vehicles and 18,292,310 tons of supplies. Allied casualties for the period of combat are estimated at a figure of 766,294. American losses are carried as 586,628, of which 135,576 are listed as dead (Ch. XX).

    http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/11-9/7-9.htm

    American losses crossing the Rhine were 15,000 , Monty lost 6,000

    Thats no waltz...



    In regard to Monty, you have already said enough about him in the rest of the thread where I don't feel like I have to say anything more about him.

    You have said it all, and most of your points totally disparaging him I agree with ;)
     

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