Worst generals

Can I put forward IKE.

As he sanctioned market garden, and also covered up Operation Tiger. Which for a short period of time is understandable but not for 40 years.

I am sure there were many coverups during WW2.

 

Ike was a diplomat, not a true commander of a field force. This is why he was given supreme command of the SHAEF which counted about a dozen nationalities of soldiers. In the case of Market-Garden, he approved it for a number of reasons.

1. Monty had been denied command of all Allied land forces, as a figure between Ike and the troops; he had been severely disappointed by this and quite touched in his pride. Ike wanted to tighten his bond with Monty (a notorious troublemaker in command levels) by giving him the next offensive.
2. Giving Patton the lead, as in all of August, had led to significant gains but these were badly organized; now Ike had command of troops that were scattered all over France without supply or a clear plan to follow. The logistical support couldn't keep up; a Monty-style roganized offensive would give some stability back to the front.
3. Ike knew perfectly well that every day, the Germans were getting stronger because the Allied attack had stagnated. He needed some daring action to get the move back into the front, but this time in a planned disciplined manner; Monty was the obvious choice.
4. Noticing that the American people were beginning to get war-weary, the plan Monty offered Ike guaranteed a quick end to the war in Europe if succesful. Given all other circumstances (low supply, stiffening front) he was willing to give it a shot.
5. The target of the Allied forces all along had been to get over the Rhine as fast as possible; the comparable resistance was lowest in the Low countries, and therefore the Arnhem bridge seemed closest to the Allies. Another advantage of this move was the bypassing of the Siegfriedline, with which the first encounters had been bloody.

How can you blame him? He didn't make the plan and had good reasons to approve it.

 

Amongst those reasons was one that I had give as to why the plan wasn't idiotic, which has been claimed here. The plan was good just some bad errors in judgement and a lot of bad luck.

I don't think he was bad just wanted to throw a spanner in to get a reaction.

But I do agree witht the yanks becomming war weary after a few months fighting.


On a lighter side,

Here nato had a range day and the yanks turned up late (no suprise there).

As the yanks de-bussed one said don't worry we are here. At this time one of the Brits heard the German talk and laugh, so he ask what that was about.

The Germans said

bloody Americans are always late, we had been fighting for 3 year in the last war before they started.

I thought it was funny.

 

GP, I think all the reasons for this offensive don't justify the plan, and I still think the plan is a perfect example of complete idiocy. I would like to hear how you want this thing to ever succeed. It can't, couldn't and never would have.

 

Within a short space of time the airborne division was over run. They took anti-armour equipment with them, however, it didn't arrive in a working condition.

The got to the Bridge(s) and couldn't stop the armour from crossing. Had they sufficient ammo through resup could have held off the German armour. Had the radios work they could have talked to the aircraft/echelon and possible moved the drop zones. They held out for 9 days until the Germans forced their armour accross.

This is one way.

And the risk of 10000 to end the war not taking so many casualties, is worth the risk.

 

Still a question whether taking the bridge would ensure the end of the war. Maybe the Allies could push deep into Holland, maybe even succesfully turn east toward the Ruhr, but at some point they'd get stuck into the supplies brought by Speer's miracle. They couldn't take such a thing to Berlin.

Btw, the British had plenty of AT weapons. They hadn't stacked them all in one glider, there was a whole company of them with the 1st wave.

 

Yes but the gilder didn't make it, I'm not sure what happend to it but they were short hf the big stuff, The point is it wasn't montys fault the glider was lost.

I need to either what the film a bridge too far or more research.

 

By the way - don't slate Monty too much for being something of a self-serving publisist.

High-ranking officers on both sides who were not are hard to find.

The only one who springs to mind is Slim, but I could be wrong!

 

Possibly, but Monty was a known arrogant liar in doing so.

 

It would seem roel that you don't like Monty because he is very arrogant. That I can appreciate but his leadership boosted Britains the moral and thus giving Her troops something to fight for.

As you quoted about Market Garden, Eisenhower gave Montys plan the go ahead, partly because the Americans were becoming weary after a few months of fighting. Well the rest of Europe had been fighting for years and a boost to maoral is very good to the fighting man.

I don't know Monty and yes by all accounts he was bigoted and arrogant but he wasn't the worse gerneral in WW2.

You still haven't convinced me.

 

I don't like Monty because, quoting my own message from page one of this topic:

Whatever effect on morale he had among the British soldiers he led, he had a reversed effect on all other soldiers under his command; Americans and Canadians disliked his shows, his attitude and his ways. They hated to serve under him, and when forced to their morale anturally dropped low.

By the way, in september 1944 the Americans had been at war for almost three years.

 

GP, this is the first and only time I have seen American war weariness used as an excuse for Market-Garden. I doubt there was much war weariness in September 1944 after the race across France. Eisenhower was the supreme commander and could have stopped Maket-Garden, but Monty above everyone did not consider him a "battlefield' leader. One of Eisenhower's requriements for Monty to launch the operation was to clear the Scheldt first. In typical Monty fashion he ignored it. In typical Ike fashion he placed allied solidarity first and let him have his way.

 

Yes, Ike looked a little too much for compromise, fought too "politically" then was really needed at the time. He comprimised with others instead of getting done what had to be done.

 

I think you need to cut him some slack; have you ever tried to keep an alliance together while the leaders of the fractions were arrogant and selfish? At least he kept SHAEF intact in spite of such subordinates as Monty and de Gaulle.

 

If this is the case who was worse, Monty for his near sightedness and failing to clear the scheldt first, or Ike for seeing it and failing to look after the troops.

If there was no way for Market Garden to succeed the I doubt if Ike would have allowed it.

 

In theory it could, but in practice it's impossible. Like I said before, twice: Market-Garden could only have been succesful if the German troops in the area were actually in the state that SHAEF reckoned them to be. If there was a single organized German unit in the area of assault, the plan would immediately become doubtful; there were, actually, more than four organized German units there and more were coming in constantly because the Scheldt was open for 15th Army to withdraw.

 

Well exactly!
So why do you question there decision with hindsight, using information they did not / could not have?

 

Because they were overconfident. There was no reaosn for this.

By the way, I posted the sentence you quoted three times now, and it has truly never been directly disagreed with. My best line yet!

 

Well, after Patton's drive, and Falaise, they probably thought they could be.
And why not execute a plan for a speedy advance aimed at what appears to be the weakly defended bit of the Enemy line. The Germans did that a lot, and it worked for them!

(apologies for ruining the record of your best line!)

 

Oh, my line's intact, it's just no longer backed up by proof of SHAEF stupidity... This is a good insight by the way, I never looked at it this way.

I love this forum!