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Yes!!! Obamacare under attack!

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by Shadow Master, Mar 24, 2010.

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  1. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Democrats' health care reform isn't socialized health care.

    The Urban Institute wrote in an April 2008 analysis that "socialized medicine involves government financing and direct provision of health care services" and explained that Democratic health care reform proposals do not "fit this description. While these policies would provide additional public resources to help the uninsured pay for coverage and would increase the pooling of risks in insurance markets, none would overturn the dominant role of private insurance and private providers in America's health care system." The analysis also noted, "Similar rhetoric was used to defeat national health care reform proposals in the 1990s and, with less success, to argue against the creation of Medicare in the 1960s." (emphasis mine)

    Obama has not proposed (nor approved) socialized medicine, single payer, or nationalized health care.

    As PolitiFact.com noted (a year ago) in a March 5, 2009, post, "Obama's plan leaves in place the private health care system, but seeks to expand it to the uninsured," and "the plan is very different from some European-style health systems where the government owns health clinics and employs doctors."

    And during a March 26, 2009, online town hall, Obama explicitly rejected the notion of implementing a health care system "the way European countries do or Canada does," explaining that what "we should do is to build on the [employer-based] system that we have." (emphasis mine)

    See:

    PolitiFact | Obama health plan does not call for government-run health care

    And the system he signed is NOT socialized medicine in any way, shape or form.
     
    brndirt1, Apr 2, 2010
    #121
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    By the way, can you site ONE WORD in the English language that only has ONE MEANING? "Teabaggers", in the context of my post, are those people in the Tea Bag movement. If someone with a dirty mind has another take on the word, that's their lookout. Sorry if you don't like the fact that it's associated with the whiney Tea Bag Party, but I didn't pick the name, your fuerhrers did.
     
    OpanaPointer, Apr 2, 2010
    #122
  3. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    While I don't care if you use the term myself nor am I per se a Tea Party member, it is a derrogatory term used primarily by Progressives / the Left to label the Tea Party and meant to be offensive. I would say in the interests of a reasoned and temperate debate that it not be used. It weakens your position to have to resort to it.
     
    T. A. Gardner, Apr 2, 2010
    #123
  4. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    Yet....
     
    T. A. Gardner, Apr 2, 2010
    #124
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Better system, don't give me enough power over you that I can frighten you with with mere words. Spine up and don't be scared by the words you see on the screen.
     
    OpanaPointer, Apr 2, 2010
    #125
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Oh, and further bad news. The whole world knows you as Teabaggers, so live with it or not, the facts won't change.
     
    OpanaPointer, Apr 2, 2010
    #126
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  7. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    It makes insurance more affordable by providing the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history, reducing premium costs for tens of millions of families and small business owners who are priced out of coverage today. This helps 32 million Americans afford health care who do not get it today – and makes coverage more affordable for many more. Under the plan, 95% of Americans will be insured.

    It sets up a new competitive health insurance market giving millions of Americans the same choices of insurance that members of Congress will have.

    It brings greater accountability to health care by laying out commonsense rules of the road to keep premiums down and prevent insurance industry abuses and denial of care.

    It will end discrimination against Americans with pre-existing conditions.


    It puts our budget and economy on a more stable path by reducing the deficit by more than $100 billion over the next ten years – and more than $1 trillion over the second decade – by cutting government overspending and reining in waste, fraud and abuse.
    See:

    Health Care | The White House

    Yupper, all bad things (NOT). Some of them won't go into effect immediately, but we have to start somewhere.
     
    brndirt1, Apr 2, 2010
    #127
  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Obama nailed it the other day. If the hysterical crowd were farmers they'd plan seed one day and plow up the fields two days later because nothing had sprouted. The BS about "no results" shows how deeply they're thinking about this.
     
    OpanaPointer, Apr 2, 2010
    #128
  9. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    To be perfectly honest I'm enjoying the "discourse" and I know just how those opposed to Obama feel. I felt the same way for eight years while we had the Cheney/Bush Admin. 600 billion surplus to multi-trillion deficit. 84 cent per gallon gas to $1.85 before the end of 2000. It took 25 years for the price of gas to double (1974-1999) and during the 8 Bush/Cheney years it tripled.
    We all have opinions but I'm waiting until we actually see what comes of the bill that passed. As a comparison: I was a union member all my working life and received the 'shaft' from both sides. Paid my dues which was not an option, received a good wage but endured years of arrogance at the hands of, in WW2 vernacular "90 day Wonders" for bosses. Every time a contract was due for renewal, Management touted this contract offer was the best ever and the Union screamed we'd all be working for pennies an hour. Neither were anywhere near truthful. The one thing I continue to see and hear on the topic of Health Care is it will DOOM us from the GOP and we have SALVATION from the Dems. And yet, no one has read the damn bill ??!! Forced health-care insurance in my eyes is no different than forced gas taxes, forced food taxes, forced restaurant taxes, forced property taxes, forced state taxes, forced auto insurance (tax?), forced speed limits, forced federal income taxes, forced taxes on savings income, forced school taxes, forced phone taxes, forced drivers license and renewal taxes, ad infinum. If you've made it this far in my tirade I'll just add this one last observation; No one in this country illegally should receive any benefits and that includes the Mexican Nationals walking across the border to schools and hospitals in the Southern States.
     
    Biak, Apr 2, 2010
    #129
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Biak, we should punish the illegal immigrants by making them citizens. Then they'd have to pay TAXES!:D
     
    OpanaPointer, Apr 2, 2010
    #130
  11. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    Okay with me Opanapointer, as long as they pay their back taxes, an entrance fee, border crossing fines, wage taxes on any 'under the table' income, tax on any money sent out of the country, reimburse any and all medical expenses for care received and not paid for, and just for the heck of it a Welcome to America tax.
     
    Biak, Apr 2, 2010
    #131
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  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'd be happy if they just paid from now on. It would be an improvement. However, there is another group of immigrants that have gotten away with coming here without the proper papers and have been doing so for a LONG time. These characters weren't welcome in their own country and wound up here without going through any channels at all. And they're taking over the place! If I had my way I'd put them all back on the Mayflower and send them back where they came from.
     
    OpanaPointer, Apr 2, 2010
    #132
  13. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    Let’s not forget the system set up in the ‘90s which allows "non-citizens" to pay taxes. The IRS has issued more than 6.8 million of the individual taxpayer identification numbers since 1996. Last year (this was written in 2007), it gave out almost 1.5 million, about 58 percent more than in 2000.

    The government doesn't track how many undocumented immigrants have been issued the nine-digit numbers, and officials note that not everyone who seeks one is undocumented.

    Some are foreign students or researchers who are in the country under temporary, legal visas. By law, the agency is barred from routinely sharing data on taxpayers with federal immigration officials.

    People with the tax numbers reported wages of almost $7 billion and paid almost $305 million in taxes, according to the IRS (in 2006).

    Wells Fargo Bank, Citibank and Washington Mutual already accept the numbers from people who want to open bank accounts.


    An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) is a tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service. It is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a range of 70-88 in the fourth and fifth digit, example 9XX-70-XXXX.

    IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).

    ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have a U.S. filing or reporting requirement under the Internal Revenue Code.

    Individuals must have a filing requirement and file a valid federal income tax return to receive an ITIN, unless they meet an exception.

    The 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education. (emphasis mine)


    According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended.

    As the New York Times reported in 2005:

    As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

    While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus.

    And in April three years later the same paper reported:

    In the fine print of the 2008 annual report on Social Security, released last week, the program’s trustees noted that growing numbers of "other than legal" workers are expected to bolster the program over the coming decades.

    We’re not talking chump change. According to the report, the taxes paid by other-than-legal immigrants will close 15 percent of the system’s projected long-term deficit. That’s equivalent to raising the payroll tax by 0.3 percentage points, starting today.
    The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

    See:

    Reason Foundation - Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think
     
    brndirt1, Apr 2, 2010
    #133
  14. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    The thing that annoys me about this whole "debate" is the propensity for people like Glenn Beck and Phyllis Schlafly and their followers to demonize anyone who dares to disagree with them as traitors determined to destroy "their" country. I won't apologize for my liberal political philosophy, but I resent being called traitorous for it. I have as much love for the US as any of the ideologues from the other side, and I can never recall, even during the presidency of George W. Bush, this level of vitriol being used. Even the most ardent anti-Bush people never claimed he was out to destroy our way of life.

    I won't close this thread, but neither will I post anything further. I will monitor it, though, as I am seeing the tendency of some to resort to personal attacks. To be honest, it was this kind of angry rhetoric that almost led me to leave the forum not long after I joined. Political disagreement I can live with, personal attacks and hate speech aimed at those who disagree I cannot. Be careful.
     
    LRusso216, Apr 2, 2010
    #134
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  15. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    And therein lies the problem. People coming into the Country and living here Illegally are contributing to the health care cost, (we pay for them because they can't or won't). It is interesting also to see that "Illegals" appear to have better protection in breaking the US Laws than lawful Citizens. If I'm not miscalculating (doing it in my head), out of the 9 billion in wages they paid back something less than 5 percent? I also wonder how much of the total 'earnings' became part of the GNP of another country by mail or Western Union. Like Opanapointer pointed out, we're a Nation of immigrants. Maybe it Would be best if we gave it back to the rightful owners. Naw, things look messed up but we still have it pretty good here in the U. S. of A.
     
    Biak, Apr 2, 2010
    #135
  16. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Let's consider this as a conclusion Biak. As Lou said it earlier this thread should have been closed a long time ago. I'd appreciate some tolerance from some of you if you don't want me to close the next ones too.
     
    Skipper, Apr 3, 2010
    #136
  17. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I'm adding my two cents, not the discussion, but to the way it was conducted.

    You wonder why we push to discourage political discussion? Read the previous three pages and you will see why.

    Pathetic.

    Discuss the damned issue and stay away from the personal insults.

    This is first and foremost this is a WORLD WAR II discussion forum.

    I'll type it out again for those of you who missed it the first go around - WORLD WAR II.

    It is not an "Obama is an Idiot" forum, nor is it a "Tea-baggers are racist forum."

    One more time and everybody say it together...WORLD WAR II.

    Y'all get off on all these God-forsaken tangents and start showing your assess, then challenge us to ban you for some supposed right you think you have, which I guess is to show your ass here. I may not like your politics at all (for those of you who don't know where I lean, I am WAY far to the right), but I ain't here to discuss that and I sure ain't here to be a consumate ass, like I am having to be right now.

    I don't like banning people, but by God, this place existed before you showed up and it will exist long after you are no longer welcome.

    Enough is enough and I've had enough.

    BTW, ignore the "Best Regards" in my signature below for this post.
     
    Slipdigit, Apr 3, 2010
    #137
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  18. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Thread is now open for those who dare to raise my cackles.
     
    Slipdigit, Apr 3, 2010
    #138
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  19. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    Thank You Slipdigit for reopening the thread.
    Being a moderate conservative Democrat I respectfully yield my time to my distinguished colleagues. I have enacted a self imposed moratorium on "The Stump" and plan on spending my time investigating the varied topics pertaining to WW2.
     
    Biak, Apr 4, 2010
    #139
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