Banzai charges

Ummm, the Japanese did not move through any jungle. They came down a road paralleling the beach and through a coconut plantation.

It was hot & humid, but there was no jungle. Again, your confused with Kawaguchi.

The Japanese were quite fit & in good shape. Besides, they were well provisioned(How long had the Marines been on half rations?).
You also fail to note how long the Japanese rested before the attack.

 

I guess it was a good thing the Marines were in air conditioned bunkers with topless native girls bringing them steaks and ice cold drinks.....oh wait they weren't.

Ichiki was there for only two days, the Marines for nearly 3 weeks by the time of the attack. Yes the Japanese marched thru jungle, but the Marines built defensive positions in that same jungle so were just as tired and considerably less fresh. Ichiki lost his best asset, surprise. The Marines were warned by coastwatchers first and again when a US patrol sent out to find the detachment ambushed a Japanese patrol. Ichiki attacked a dug in regiment with a battalion. He had rifles, MG's and mortars,. The Marines had these and 37mm canons, access to to artillery, tanks and airstrikes. Ichiki chose to send his force in piecemeal, and refused to withdraw when advised to. Come daylight the Marines brought the full force to bear on Ichiki's isolated detachment, cut off by a flanking column, strafed and assaulted by tanks his battalion was all but destroyed.

Ichiki had victory disease, he had it bad, and he and his men paid the price. He exceeded his own orders, he did not respect his opponent, he did not adjust his tactics when it was clear they were not going to work.

In short there was nothing wrong with his men, in fact they were probably better than average. Ichiki was arrogant and stupid and that is more than enough for a disaster to occur.

 

....ever been in the military doing forced marches --not in the jungle? ....I don't care if they were Lance Armstrong---this is undeniable = they were not getting:
regular sleep
enough water
proper food
etc
..it's a biological fact
and you say they are in top condition???!!
....

 

..it was one of many factors .....
...I have done all night marches with little sleep....done exercises that lasted a few days with not much sleep/etc.... in fairly good weather--and it saps energy ....you wake up sometimes and your head hurts...you sometimes don't know where you really are when you wake up...
= more chances for mistakes/etc
..you also--think it's a board game
..etc

 

..I remember doing an exercise for a few days...the last full day we moved all day--until the evening and rested for about 2 hours...then moved the rest of the night/morning to do an assault at dawn....it's tiring--and this is getting full sleep/food/etc before the exercises

 

I have stated elsewhere that I have not been in the uniformed service, but I have worked 10, 12, 14 plus hour days, often skipping meals so I do understand. What you seem to not be understanding or acknowledging is that the Marines were under much the same condition, while Ichiki marched the Marines were prepping their position for a expected attack. Marching is tough, so is digging foxhole's, stacking sandbags, laying barbed wire and sighting weapons.

The Marines had been 'in country' for over two weeks, Ichiki two Days The Marines were suffering dysentery and on reduced rations, some of it captured Japanese food unfamiliar to them. As you yourself point out troops are trained to make difficult marches with little sleep and then executing operations against opposition. I also think its fair to say Japanese training protocols of the era was at a level of vigorous or even cruelty not acceptable to American troops, even Marines.

 

Forced March? This was not Jackson's foot cavalry. Ichiki took 2 days to move the 19 miles. They moved from dusk til dawn and rested during the day. The Japanese also had a good hour and a half from the end of the march to the start of the attack. Most probably had more since they began arriving aroused 9pm.

They were not marching through the jungle, but along the coastal road.

Care too try again.

 

Wonderful! But, that is not what Ichiki did. He marched at night, when it was cooler. Then, rested his men during the day. Beginnig the march again at dusk. His men had about 2-4 hours rest before the first assault.

 

..they landed when? 18 Aug at night....move 20 miles and assault when? 21 Aug....

..-you prove to know nothing about forced marches/movements ....
...they are still sweating like hell.....it can be 50 degrees and you will sweat like hell on a forced march
..and they are still tired
..and wasn't it a lot longer than 20 miles? I thought that was the air distance?

..also--I was adding something of what really happened--adding in realism/what it's really like...so people might try to think in terms other than like it's a board game

..who said he moved during they day??!!

..again, they did not get much rest from time of landing to time of assault--plain, simple, undeniable

 

..as stated in my above post--I was adding in what it was really like/what really happened--instead of people thinking it's like a board game ...what were the Japanese AND Marines thinking/feeling/etc??!!
..don't you/a lot of members like and want to ''realize'' that?
...I'm not trying to be Mr Military--I was adding in reality-realism [ as I have done many times before and try to do ] when I first mentioned the looooooong forced march
caps for emphasis only

 

....I've always tried to think in realistic terms on many issues--as in today's TOP issue in the US.--[ that has nothing to do with the military ] ....my father was ''like'' that ....
..or try to imagine what it is really like--heat/cold/hungry/tired/etc etc

 

over 10 miles a day!!!!! not in a built up area--this --also--proves you don't know anything about ''forced marches''
AND you said they rested--so it wasn't 2 days to move ''19'' miles--it was less than 2 days
..so, how many hours for the ''19'' miles??
.and they weren't on a paved road ..
..you think that's easy?? !! what was the humidity?? high--yes?
..they don't have cold gatorade.....

 

..USMC condition is irrelevant to my point about the Japanese not being in top condition.....the USMC wiped out the Japanese--plain and simple.....so, obviously and undeniably [ hahahah ] the USMC was better organized/etc

 

Makes you wonder how all the soldiers fought all the wars before WW2. Listening to you, they should all be too tired to pull the trigger. Yet, pull the trigger they did, and win battles they did. Hmmm...they must have been made of sterner stuff than troops today.

It's about 16 air miles from Taivu Point to Henderson & the Tenaru is what? About 1 mile in front of Henderson, so about 15 air miles. The coastline does not meander too much.

No, your not adding anything that really happened. Your trying to shoehorn your personal experiences to fit Ichiki's situation...While at the same time acting like the rest of us have never stayed awake for any more than 16 hours at a time(my personal best is 84 hours straight), and have not walked more than 2 blocks.

Your the only on looking at it like a game..
OMG! It's dark, the troops will get lost.
OMG! The troops walked between 2 trees, there lost.
OMG! It's raining, the troops will get lost.
OMG! The troops did not get their full 8 hours rest.
OMG! The troops didn't get their 3 squares today.
OMG! It's too hot, the troops can't fight today.

Amazing, by your "game rules", wars should never be fought.

Did I miss any of you "rules"?

 

---o yes--the other thing --I would think you should know, Takao--rest time is not really total rest time for a lot of soldiers/Marines/sailors--there are many things to do during '''rest time'':
clean and check weapons
eat
patrols
meetings/orders given
recon
hygiene!!!
etc etc

 

..I just saw 2 things stating 20 air miles--a youtube documentary and I think hyperwar--here, I think:
22 from the Lunga--how far from the Lunga to Tenaru?
HyperWar: History of USMC Operations in WWII, Vol. I: Part VI, Chapter 4

 

22 miles, they stopped about 9 miles from Henderson at 0430 on the 20th. They covered the rest of the distance towards evening, with Ichiki's advance units arriving between 2100-2200, with Ichiki arriving around 0030, and peering the assault to start at 0200.

 

"It was 22 miles via the coastal road to the Ilu River."
From the aforementioned US Marine Versus Japanese Infantryman by Gordon L. Rottman.

The Tenaru was about 1-2 miles in front of the Ilu.

 

o yes--so you see rest is not really rest--there's that again--what really is happening

 

hahahahhaahah..
....no, you state wrong things and then I use my experiences to strengthen my facts and to point out you are wrong
..going 20 miles on even paved roads in humid weather, with weapons/equipment/etc, in 2 days is not a walk in the park---like you think it is