Is Condemnation of Dresden Bombing Justified?It

The people who actually did that was the NKVD. The more arrests you made ad the more confessions you got, the more medals you earned and job security within the NKVD. Don't fall back on your quota of arrests or convictions as that could be evidence of counter-revolultionary tendencies. So, onward! for the glorious Soviet Revolution. Then again, a jealous boss could accuse you of something and then you get hauled off and beatened. Your papers are seized as evidence. That happened to Lyudmila Palivchenko's father.

What can be said of the NKVD can also be said of counter-intelligence, SMERSH. They were also eager to round up soldiers as spies and ship them off to gulags or firing squads.

I had a Ukranian subordinate/co-worker who also did that sh*t to me. Ran to my boss and fabricated lies. Impaling others was his path to success. However, I was always squeaky clean. After a couple of years, the carpet got yanked out from beneath him when I put all the cards on the table and they saw what a worthless PoS he was. He had a Dutch Uncle talk and a nervous breakdown after that. Reading history can be so useful. I understood what he was doing and why he was doing it from the getgo.

 

The Japanese already knew the Soviets were coming and they already knew that Manchuria was a write-off and they already knew that the Soviets had no naval sea lift capability to threaten the home islands. You really need to read more on the subject to get your facts straight. From you post, further explanation would require more effort than I'm willing to expend. Suggest you start with a reading of Frank's "Downfall", cover to cover, twice, so you understand it all.

 

Don' t forget the fact that if you did not make enough arrests you yourself were the spy and sabeteur of the system. Will you then Make arrests???

 

Reminds me of the role-playing game Paranoia.

All hail the Computer!

 

Did I write that?

What I did was answer this question:

A veteran myself, I don't believe there's anything humane about war. Hopefully that clears up your confusion.

 

This is a rather controversial topic, and there is the risk of political implications... Anyway, my two cents are that Dresden at that stage of the war could have justified a "secondary", that is minor or medium-sized, daylight raid against the rail yards, but not the massive bombing carried out in reality.

Personally I have some doubts about the utility (and justification) of area bombing after mid-1944. With a lot of long range escort fighters available and the Luftwaffe largely crippled, could the British have joined the Americans in daylight "precision" bombing? I know that "precision" is very relative here, but it seems still more effective - and humane - than just blasting indiscriminately at big cities. By that stage it should have been clear that area bombing wouldn't force Germany to surrender by cracking the morale of the population. And switching to daylight bombing would have made German night fighters largely irrelevant. Sure they could have been converted to daylight operations but they wouldn't have been as effective. And the British could still have carried out some night raids in order to force German night defenses to keep their guard up. The Americans were able to switch from daylight to night bombing in Japan so it doesn't seem so implausible that the British would have been able to go the other way around.

 

The dwarf Yazhov certainly ramped up the paranoia.

Coming to a nation near you (including Amerika)!

 

Concur. Its best avoided.

 

1. Dresden was no different than any other city = just as justifiable as any other city
2.was daylight '''''precision''' [ big question marks there ] more effective than massive night bombing/fire bombing?
--daylight bombing was not going to force Germany to surrender
3. yes, yes--the US did switch to night bombing

 

..I thought I read somewhere where Speer said a few more massive raids like Hamburg or Dresden and Germany ---I don't remember the exact words--but Germany could not have continued the war on the level they did/etc .....

 

That was after Hamburg. I don't recall the exact words either but it was after Hamburg that he was so shocked he said that one or two more Hamburgs and Germany has lost the war. Never read if Hitler had any comments to this. I don't think he did.

 

I'm not at all confused. It's the summer of 1945, just how does one end this war. The Japanese do not appear to be in the mood to capitulate. So, what to do?

 

1. It depends. If the intent is just killing German civilians then yes. As a strategic and industrial target no. Its main importance was as a railway hub. A smaller raid wouldn't have made any difference to the war effort but would have saved many lives.

2. It wouldn't force Germany to surrender, no. The question of the effectiveness of daylight "precision bombing" vs night area bombing is still debated. My impression is that by the spring '44 daylight bombing was more effective against specific industrial targets, especially the oil industry, which was key to German war effort. But I may be wrong. I'm trying to find exact statistics about night vs day bombing losses on Germany in 1944-45 but most of the info I saw on the net is about crew casualties, not ac. losses. Anyway the RAF bombing campaign against Berlin (Nov 43 - March 44) is considered a failure that almost crippled the Bomber Command.

3. The US switched to night bombing in Japan because the conditions were very different from Europe. Atmospheric conditions were unfavorable for high altitude daylight bombing. Much of Japan industrial facilities were spread in the cities in small factories and the building materials in Japanese cities were more vulnerable to fire bombing than in German cities.

 

My point wasn't aimed at you; I was answering Takao and reminding him of your original question with that quote.

I've already answered your question, to wit, blockade by sub warfare aided by mining. Sorry about the confusion brought on by my being unclear.

 

If only ...

 

thanks for the reply
1.plain and simple = they were killing civilians no matter what--in all the raids ..akin to the Abombs- try to destroy the will to continue ..if the Abombs were justifiable [ and they were ] then so was Dresden
...any German city was a legitimate target
2. I thought I read one time and I mentioned it in this thread I think, that fire ''was''' more effective at destroying factories than the '''few'' bombs that actually hit the factories .....I thought I read that about Schweinfurt - fire would've been more destructive
a. first, you have to have a direct hit on the factory with GP bombs = which we know was not easy
b. those hits have to destroy/etc the critical components of that factory
where as fire envelopes a lot more area
..although not a bombing raid, I thought in the St Nazaire raid they used some type of chemical/fire/etc devices that would ''fuse''/''melt'' the components together thereby really making the target really irreparable ...much harder to repair
..with fire, you get greater/''certain'' damage
...so, daylight precision bombing vs night time general bombing with fire bombs = the fire bombing seems more effective ....you are not only destroying more infrastructure and killing workers/workers for the whole infrastructure, you also must use the survivors for repair/rescue/etc

 

Like in war, the soldiers are adviced to wound people badly. It takes 2-3 people or soldiers to take the wounded person to the doctor. You kill him, no need to do anything more.

 

Dresden was a railway hub to bring troops and supplies to the East, there was manufacturing and other war administration there, and it paved the way for the Soviets when they reached Dresden as both a softening up for the Soviets and a show of force as to what the Western Allies could do with air attacks. World War II was a total war and more civilians died that combatants.

 

I think the soldiers are advised to hit their target...would be nice if they were good enough shots and had the aiming time to wound...if they go down, you move your eyes to another target, and you aim for the largest body mass...the chest.