What if Italy had been a capable air/naval power?

Two weaknesses I noticed with axis efforts were one, lack of coordination between the axis and two Italy plain and simply could not prove it self as a true military force capable of attacking and taking territories like their axis counterparts. Suppose that Italy was that unifying force which could allow for troop movement, shipping weaponry and supplies between the 3 powers what would that have ment for allied efforts? I think greater coordination could have allowed for more aggressive and effective assaults on areas such as China, India Britain and Australia. Think of the Italians providing sort of the Axis version of the marines in that the could attack effectively fom sea to land and provide air and sea support to their German allies. I think had this had been the case a full ground assault on Britain would have been much more feasible. Furthermore dealing with the Italian control of the sea would have been priority one before landing on a German controlled France. Breaking the supply lines through the Indian Ocean would have also been important in taking away the coordination between the Axis powers.

 

I can't figure out why Italy was so bad in all aspects of the military. Mussolini had been in power since 1922, in a dictatorship based on militarism and conquest, yet his armies were terribly unprepared and not well-equipped. Mussolini did build up the Navy and added modern fighters to the air force, but as a whole I don't understand why they were so bad.

 

I think it has to do with their history the Italians weren't much as a fighting nation. Look at Fredrick took his German army and beat down all of Italy. The Italians mostly just gave in they didn't have the resolve to fight long wars. Also Mussolini was like Stalin trying to industrialize his country Italy was far behind the rest of the western world they were great t building small engines and always were great competitors at the air races but lacked heavy industry and had a had time producing large engines for like the tanks at one point they wanted to either acquire engines from Germany or have Germany help them build a plant to build copies. The navy had some of the best ships at the time but in my book marina Regina it said the naval admarilty never supported Mussolini and wouldn't directly follow his orders. I think it the itslians had been a more effective military things in North Africa would have gone against the British. Look how many times the British best down Rommel mostly because Rommel couldn't get a steady supply of men and eauiptment and supplies like fuel ammo. If he was getting a steady flow of reinforcements and eauiptment and supplies I think it would have been very bad for North Africa. I actually liked the looks of many of the late war Italian aircraft like the macchi 202&205 the G55. Good looking aircraft but don't know how effective the were. The very late tanks like the m15 and p40 and semovente 105 and 76 were like by the Germans and order large numbers of such but Italian production had slowed down tremendously most Italians were tired of the war and just gave up when the south surrendered most in the north wanted it to just end but the Germans controlled most of the north cutting off electricity to small towns and villages to power the factories trying to build more weapons to fight the allies. Italians were just not fighters like the Germans ventures of fighting back to fighting the Romans then each other they became a country of trained mercenaries hell the Brits hired Prussian/ German mercs during the revolutionary war. I think the Italians just hated fighting and didn't really have the industry for war a lot of their best machines were near the end when it didn't matter. But not all itslians hated to fight one Italian regiment fought hard and well and impressed the Germans so well they were given German weapons and tanks I read poke IVs and even tiger Is. I don't know how good Italian planes were but I have seen pics of the late models in German markings idk if that was just plane confiscated by the Germans or if they used them.

 

Italy never acquired any Tigers, although 2 Tiger battalions fought in Italy.

 

Hmmmm guess I got into another site with missed up info too bad had a drawing of a tiger in Italian camo, Italian camo is pretty kewl looking. More complex than Germans, germans look more practical. Italian camo looks so involved wonder if they were really effective

 

Italians were descendants of the Roman Empire, they definitely have fight in them.

 

The Romans were good administrators and good at theatre…most of the soldiers were from the countries conqured…They met their Waterloo when the Germans arrived on the scene…funny that.

 

You probably came across Alfredo Carpaneto. Italian by birth, and wound up joining the German Army when Italy remained neutral. He eventually was assigned to
schwere Panzerabtielung 502. As a Tiger commander, he scored somewhere around 50 kills, before being killed in action during an engagement with several IS-2s shortly before the end of the war.

 

Their frogman units and other special warfare functions were pretty good.

 

Wow one IS-2 is tough several would be better have a bunch of guys with you. On the Russian fronti thought it was insane how the Russians would charge out full speed and ram German tanks more or less disabling them by pinning or damaging the ruining gear or pinning them by crawling on top. One German tanker in a panther said a KV ramed them backed up and ramed them again like three times then backed up and shot them they couldn't shoot because when he ramed them he was so close the gun hit and couldn't swing around. Tanks pinned then were easy targets for other tanks to shoot in the sides or rear. Like did someone figure that was a tactic that was best for them out of their shear numbers or desperation when the Germans seemed unstoppable. Like someone must have ordered the drivers to do that or told them that was their best chance for survival. Anyway it certainly caught the Germans off guard they had a hard time trying to cope with it

 

Weren't the Germans part of the guals. The battles were tremendous one battle with barbarians most other nations were barbarians according to the Romans lasted five days and Rome lost a hundred legions. A legion was a thousand men plus auxiliaries spear throwers or archers maybe some mounted infantry. So they could have lost far more than a hundred thousand. Damn no wonder they fell losing s argue portion of their military take years to replace and the money to hire and train and equip a new army. Plus they seem to have a number of so called lost legions one in British most likely wiped out by the celts. The one they sent into China that seemed to disappear over two thousand , the ego on auxiliaries and families most likely they were supposed to establish a settlement with families along but gone. Other expeditions that marched off to never be herd from. You'd think they would find something remains, weapons armor. The Romans were fighters but the centuries of fighting just wore them down near the end they just lost the fight in them and surrendered the city without alight the had the city garrison and home legion but just opened the gates. I think the centuries of constant fighting just wore them out and the Roman Empire fell the western empire tried to retake the east but failed many times before they weretookweak to maintain control and other empires slowly pushed them out.

 

Good observation, and I would add the paratroops especially the Folgore division. These units attracted the most motivated men and also stressed camaraderie between officers and enlisted troops, in contrast to the class structure which infected much of the army. Italy was only recently unified; people from north and south could barely understand each other.

In the late medieval and Renaissance periods, Italians had been among the foremost practitioners of the military arts. This was an era of relatively small armies of professional soldiers, often mercenaries, often from the upper classes and the northern city-states. Their descendants were not necessarily prepared to lead vast armies of peasant conscripts.

I suppose there are worse things you could say about a people than that they are not naturally suited for mass mechanized warfare,

 

I recall reading like in North Africa that the Officers were spending nice time in their bungalows behind the lines while the infantry was in tents and there was not much communication between the two. This led to poor fighting will among the men. But when led by German officers, often the Italian soldiers were more willing to fight back. And there were special units like folgore etc that were in a class of their own.

About the Navy I have read two things ( I might be totally wrong ). They considered that Italy was their Air Force support, but this did not happen in the end. They thus did not build carriers to support their navy. Also they were supplied by Germans but they did not have the fuel to try to rule the Mediterranean given by the Germans. Then again I also read the Germans after Italy left the war could have found fuel deposits that were not used by the Navy. Also they were more afraid of losing ships than using them. Anyway, the ships had poor AA guns but I could be wrong. Just some things I think I read about the reasons why Italians did not manage to fight as well as they were expected to.

 

Mafia people are also fighters. And Mussolini was able to crack down on them but in 20 years of power produced a weak Military. Fascim is almost like if the Mafia ran a country.

 

i agree if the Italians had been a force to reckon with the whole Mediterranean and North Africa could have been Italian territory. Good thing they weren't that force think how much tougher it would have been for the allies. And yes the huge lack of coordination. Hitler thought when he attacked the Japanese might take hint and attack the Russians engaging Stalins forces in the east but they didn't allowing Stalin to move troops to the west. Good thing Stalin built the rail roads to do that. It's still amazing to think from a country of farmers and no heavy industry they would out produce one of the worlds industrial mights. They were almost out producing the us as far as tanks and building aircraft like a son of a gun. Did they even build much in the way of warships surface I know they did subs or used captured or gifted ships. I think one of the Royal soviegn class were giving or sold to the soviets but confiscated by the British when the war started saying they needed every ship.

 

Itely 1943:

War production department was only given a ministerial head in February 1943, after three years of war, was a measure of the lack of coordination of the Italian war effort.

From The Brutal Friendship by F.W.Deakin

On Naval action/programme read about the Merano conference from Wiki

 

Yes, the Soviets built tanks and recruited men but lend-lease gave them locomotives, boots, trucks etc which they could not produce themselves. I think it gave them also railroads.

 

It would have taken alot from the Navy and Air Force to make up the lost time of developing a proper fighting force.

"...the Italian Navy Staff had assumed combat only occurred in calm weather, and therefore did not discover until 1942 that key electrical systems and rangefinders on its Littorio-class battleships had little or no waterproofing...."

On operation to Malta

" the Comando Supremo estimated in 1941 that dropping the entire paratroop division ( then being formed, and eventually baptized Folgore ) in a single lift would require sixteen months´production of transport aircraft, not including production to compensate for the predictable losses in the meantime!"

"Hitler Italian Allies" by Knox

 

When Italy surrendered, the Allies agreed to give the Soviets a share of the Italian fleet, but since this could not be carried out in wartime, they loaned the battleship Royal Sovereign (renamed Archangelsk), light cruiser Milwaukee (Murmansk), and nine of the WWI-era destroyers given to Britain in the destroyers-for-bases deal. After the war Italian ships including the battleship Giulio Cesare (Novorossisk) were delivered and the "loaners" returned, one DD as late as 1952.

At the beginning of both WWI and WWII, the Royal Navy took over ships under construction for other nations; this may be what you were thinking of. Some ships like the Chilean battleship Almirante Latorre and three destroyers were delivered to their customers after war service in the RN.

The confiscation of the battleships Sultan Osman I (Agincourt) and Reshidieh (Erin) under construction for the Ottoman Empire is thought to have contributed to the Turks' decision to ally with Germany.

 

Interservice rivalry and politicking was also a factor. In both Germany ("Everything that flies belongs to me!" - Hermann Goring) and Italy, independent air forces had little interest in supporting the navies. British naval aviation was also impacted by the RAF's primary role in matters aerial, which until 1939 included providing the planes and air personnel on aircraft carriers, but Britain's strong naval heritage ensured a carrier force that could pose a significant threat to opponents who had no air cover at all.