Yes. And in Sudan he happened to target a completely harmless factory. I seem to remember it manufactured baby food and nothing else. I doubt the owners were ever compensated. Or the babies for that matter...
Of course, most sources have SOME truth in them- just some have more than others. And in any piece of writing or journalism, one has to worry a bit when the most recognized source used is clearly on one far end of the spectrum (or just off the spectrum completely!) Although I bet Mad Cow Productions is widely known for it's reliability... terrorismfiles.org looks pretty good to me... although, as always (except with Knight's sites!), I'd like to see sources mentioned. SWAT= Special Weapons and Tactics, I think. Just what cops use to get more guns into a situation, as far as I know.
Andreas--a SWAT team is a team of police officers who are used in special cases. I forget what the first word is in SWAT but it is: "S".?? "W" Weapons "A" And "T" Tactics. I think "S" in SWAT is Support--but im sure im wrong. Our SWAT teams are kinda like your countries GSG-9 teams. They are VERY effective.
Well, C., I'd have to say they are "relatively" effective. Not sure if you remember, but there was a bank robbery in North Hollywood back in I think 92 or 93... All of the SWAT teams from the Hollywood area (remember, this includes LA... tough SWAT teams) could not take down two bank robbers. Seems the crooks were far better equipped than the cops... But in most cases they can certainly manage. And I'm pretty sure SWAT training goes far beyond normal officer training...
Wasnt that the one where the two robbers had machineguns? If so, they were more than prepared to kill and to die. They were heavily armed--and had bulletproof vests and heavy clothing on. Clearly these two punks cared for nothing but their own gratification--im glad they were killed by the police. This can be compared somewhat to the Bader Meinhoff Gang from Germany. These were a large group of radical trash who murdered I dont know how many people. If im not mistaken--I think they too robbed banks. One thing is for sure--the Polizei didnt mess around with these men and women--many of them were killed by German Police. Another case comes to mind--do you remember the case in FloriDUH, where I think 2 FBI agents were killed in a gun battle with bank robbers, and I think 2 other FBI agents were seriously wounded. The FBI agents only had Shotguns and their service revolvers. They were badly outgunned and STILL came in (thankfully) as the winners. This case was the same with those two robbers in L.A. Badly outgunned but came out on top.
True, Carl... no matter how well armed and armored said bank robbers were, they really had no chance of winning or escaping. I am of the mindset that those guys just wanted to kill cops... I don't think they really thought about getting away or anything... These incidents do demonstrate that maybe the police (at least in the US) need to have access to rather heavier firepower- in the LA example, the cops only had sidearms and H&K smgs. They finally overwhelmed the robbers- by going down to the local sporting goods store and picking up a few civilian AR-15s. Those got through the body armor the robbers were wearing and really turned the gun battle against the robbers... Civilians have access to better firepower than law enforcement... yeah, that makes sense...
Actually in the case of the LA bank robbers they had body armor and assault rifles. The shotguns and pistols could not penetrate and the cops could not get safely close enough to aim for something as small as the head. A lot of people were wounded...including a civilian when the rounds actually went through the police cars they were using for cover and then went through them as well...now that is out gunned... AND that is what the SWAT teams are used for...they are more heavily armed among other things also having assault rifles...and it was the SWAT that killed one of the men...the other man i believed was kind of ambushed by a reg cop and seriously wounded...and finally commited suicide. I guess you can call SWAT teams the special forces of law enforcement...used in cases when not only is a fire fight likely but also if the criminals may even be better prepared for fighting than conventional police weopons can handle. Also SWAT teams are frequentlty used in situations of abnormally high risk. I think they are nesessary...but as i said in my other post...i think the number of independant units are a bit over board...i think towns want a SWAT team because it looks good..same reason as when a town one block long will have a police dept...with a deputy and sheriff and thats it lol! I have seen shows on the FBI shooting in Florida...now that was a scary situation! Not that the one in LA wasn't! I dunno if anyone would remember this event...but in about 1981 or 82 there was an FBI top 10 fugative shot in a hotel New York City(Ronald Williams look it up). He was ambushed while checking in(not only did he escape from prison but also killed an off duty police officer...as well as others in burglaries, but articles from the time will give a better acount of what he was wanted for) He drew a gun on another agent...in which case an agent opened fire hitting him 3 times and seriously wounding him. The agent that fired was my father. The man survived and is presently in prison for life. and since it's federal...life=life. This event was actually turned into a tv show on one of those law shows...the show is off the air now...actually it may be in syndication on court tv or something but anyway...the show is called (FBI: the untold stories) They interviewed my father and others involved and my dad even had an actor portraying him...it was very interesting! He was also awarded the FBI medal of valor for the event...it being awarded maybe 4 years ago. He retired just about a year ago. Needless to say he has some quite interesting stories and is thus a very big motivator in my like of criminal justice. What does this have to do with SWAT teams or Iraq? OOPS and me being a moderator too!! shame on me LOL
Andreas Quite right: the Al-Shifa factory, although it made anti-malarial vaccines not babyfood (that was in Iraq). This just goes to show how important Intel is, and how poor the US is at it in some areas: primarily Humint. The US developed and used lots of really good high-tech kit, but was never good at Humint, that prize was taken by the KGB.A satellite can see a factory (assuming it isn't cloudy) but it can't tell you what's in it: good Humint can. This is the challenge facing a country whose intelligence services prefer "reliable" tech to "unreliable" people. Jumbo
Not sure about the rifles, Ron. A friend of mine recorded the whole thing as it happened, switching between the news channels. And there is a cameraman who follows the police when they go to get the AR-15s... I guess SWAT may have had rifles, but it seemed like they did not immediately bring them into action. Also, if you look at some of the footage, there are police snipers who would have had a clear head shot on either of the robbers... I've never been able to figure out why they did not take said shot... The two robbers really were taken out because they seperated... the guy driving took off at one point, leaving the other guy on foot. The guy on foot ran out of rifle ammo, walked about a block, then shot himself with his pistol. The other guy tried to get away in the car, but he had taken some AR-15 hits and was already practically dead. The cops closed in and shot him. (honor among theives, eh?) All said and done, I think 6 civilians and 11 cops were shot, but I don't think any of them died... http://www.edisonpba.com/tactical/north%20hollywood.htm website I found earlier on the robbery. http://lightsnsirens.freeyellow.com/norco.htm And another... [ 26 September 2002, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]
Jumbo Thanks for correcting me, I couldn't remember off-hand. BTW if the Americans had asked us first (they never would anyway, but just if) we could have told them perfectly well what was being made in that factory. If you remember, the German ambassador to Sudan was the first to condemn the attack.
Erich Because the US government would prefer to trust it's own sources, and those derived through the UKUSA agreement, than a NATO ally. The boss was in Sudan earlier this year, we actually have a photo of what is left of Al-Shifa on our Spring front cover. He brought back a medicine bottle from the rubble. Jumbo
Jumbo : Yes I agree with the ego of the US government without problem ! I do find it odd though about our intellignece structures through the Allies and the end result of limited working ability and the non-sharing attitudes. Secrets to keep I can only imagine and that it is justifiable. E
Erich It's easy really. The Germans tell the French, and then the French tell everybody. So the US shares intel with the UK, Canada, Australia and sometimes NZ in a treaty dating back to 1946. It is considered to surpass the importance of NATO for the UK to retain this intel relationship with the US.
Carl, are you referring to my comment on firepower? The gun problem in the US is a real issue for me. I have been to numerous gun shows and seen weapons for sale that are just ridiculous. And the laws governing what civilians can own- it is illegal to own a fully-automatic weapon (without special licenses); and yet, at any gun show, it is perfectly legal to by an AK47 right along with the original full-auto breech assembly. It is only illegal to put them together... Duh? And we wonder where some of these criminals get their firepower... I really don't care what the NRA says, there is no reason for a civilian to own one of these such weapons. No LEGAL reason anyway... If we look again at the North Hollywood robbery- those robbers only had ONE piece each of illegal hardware- the full auto breeches. One of them had a Norinco AK (Chinese made AK), and the other had a FN assault rifle (not sure which). Both of those weapons were purchased legally. The door gunner's Kevlar suits each robber had were purchased legally. 100 round drum magazines- purchased legally. Now I have no legitimate problem with people owning guns (although statistically, a gun owned for home defense usually winds up killing a family member. But of course, the line "oh, that would never happen to ME" always works there )... but there are reasonable extents for everything. sorry, gents... I'll get off my soapbox now!
But hey- back to the topic- we certainly don't need to worry about Iraq invading us. Hell, American citizens probably have more AKs than the whole Iraqi army!
It was the posting that we were talking about that had to do with the Bank Robbers in L.A, who had the MG's, that I agreed with you on.
Back to Iraq for a moment... the NY Times put up an interestin article this afternoon... it's from either AP or Reuters, and it talks about the reasons Bush has for going after Iraq. Or rather, the lack of said reasons. Essentially, everyone who would actually know, everyone who is supposedly giving Bush his info- all these sources tell a very different story than Bush... And there is one really good one- from Condoleeza Rice... heh... here's the article... http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Iraq-Fact-Check.html
