Last I heard this was a WW2 Forum

The answer is no if you are talking about "heated" debates. There is a difference between asking questions and imposing views onto others. I am sure we are all mature enough to recognize the difference. Majority of the time we have disagreed on issues and moved on but in the case of what has recently been brought up, I would say that it will never end at this rate. I feel the ones who have a problem with this are those that cannot recognize the difference. So as for myself, I will continue on and focus on those issues pertinent to the spirit of this site. My thoughts.

[ 25. October 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

 

NO, we can't argue, nor yell!!!!!!!! I hate people who yells!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love this forums and I like many of you, guys! You're my friends and I also wouldn't like to have problems with you! ut this is a WWII forums and affairs as Dresden, Holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are horrible things that actually happened and must be discussed and it is obvious that some people might get annoyed. Postings must be censored when they are insulting, vulgar and disgusting and when they say things like these:

-The Earth is flat.
-Operation "Barbarossa" was a pirate.
-Alexander the Great invaded Poland in 1925 and provoked WWII.
-The Milo's Venus and Michellangelo's David are ugly works of art.
-Mozart didn't know how to write music.
-Americans had good tanks in WWII.

 

Free Fire Zone is one of the best parts of any forum-when we aren't discussing the most interesting topic EVER-thats military history by the way-we can caht about anything and really get our thoughts out-its great!!!
I second Albert's comment-KEEP THE FREE FIRE ZONE ALIVE...

 

I couldn't agree more with the field marshall about that! Can I 'report' the post to the moderator because I liked it?

By the way, how does that work? I wanted to try but I didn't want to report anybody I know and like just for testing. What if it's a bad thing...

 

I'd just dsagree with one part of Ottos post. There are no comparable forums to this.

On here, you can have disagremants, even agumants, on the FFZ, but they are not carried on in other topics. I've been on oher Forums where once youhave a disagremant with someone on one post thats it. You are always arguing with them. People here are more grown up. They don't hold grudges and repect others points of view without condemning them. And when we do get the did person that comes along who does ot respect others, they don't stay long.

We all need to blow off steam now and again, and the FFZ is the place to do it.

maybe the FFZ could do with sub-dividing. But hen if we are not caefl, it could get out of control and take over he site, which is after all, as Carl says, a WW2 site. So, i am not to sure on that one.

 

Friedrich, are you sure the earth isn't flat ?
And this 'Mozart' bloke - was he with Tangerine Dream or Kraftwerk ? I always get those two muddled up !

Best regards
'Mature' of London

 

Martin, the world isn't flat. It's round, trust me. But it does annoy me when they keep printing the world map upside down. Everyone knows Australia is on top of the world, and the rest of you are "Down under" (sorry Kiwi Ace, I guess you're on top of the world too)

But seriously, of all the various forums I've wandered through, in my opinion this is the best. Despite the difference in all our ages, there's a great maturity and clear headedness around here. And okay, sometimes there's a bit of bitchin' and cussin' but it doesn't seem to drag itself through all the different topics.

The FFZ is great. People get a chance to sound off and sometimes learn a few things about the modern world. And you need a place like the FFZ so that the rest of the forum doesn't get messed up.

As far as I'm concerned, WW2 Forums' ROCKS !!!!

___________________

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson (1874-1956), Chairman of IBM, 1943

 

Free fire is great. The only problem is that people tended to start to jab at one another in frustration. To say things or post pics that would really only anger/taunt the other.
I think i will be more strict in editing that stuff out in the future.

 

I think you're right, Martin. The Earth is flat and Godzilla was the one who destroyed the American Pacific fleet in Pearl Harbour, not Yamamoto and his carriers...

 

See ! He's jabbing at me !

Now, where's that whistle - I'm just dying to blow it.....

 

C. Evans:
The Second World War was a political struggle. The beliefs of the fascist and communist forces had philosophical roots going back to the beginning of the Nineteenth Century.
You are trying to strip this enormously significant historical event of its political significance, simplifying it to a contest between personalities and a test of various weapons systems. Supporting this sanitized viewpoint is the righteous understanding of the Loyal American, as you call yourself. The Loyal American sifts through historical evidence, trashing anything which might point toward an "unpatriotic" view of the war. If you're getting tired of "anti-government ramblings," I'm really getting tired of hearing the term "Conspiracy Theory" thrown around whenever someone wants to undermine an argument but is too lazy to go and do the historical research to refute my point. The fact is this: for many years, your Loyal American theory of the war held sway over writers, historians, and students. People who had any doubts about the dominant theory were brow-beaten as "Un-American" or even Communists. And then the facts started coming in. Facts which forever changed the way we view the Second World War. And, in the end, it wasn't some "Grand Conspiracy," it was simply business. Money and power. Multinational cartels working through an extensive international banking system. People of power who couldn't simply be categorized as American, Communist, Russian, Nazi, etc.
You think political discussions turn the forums into a "circus." You prefer a Second World War of tanks and planes and George Patton firing his revolvers at attacking Germans. Studying WWII is just an endless trivia contest of anecdotes and little stories. Carl: that's your war. I like the tanks and planes, too, but that's not what defines the Second World War. WWII is full of economic theory, political theory, philosophy, consolidation of enormous economic forces, puppet governments, and class warfare.
I'm not going to argue with you or Eric--this is "your" forum, not mine. I'll carve out my little niche in the Free Fire Zone: feel free to stop by. But, if you think that the right way to study World War Two is to deplete it of all political and economic significance, then you're really missing the most interesting part.
Respectfully submitted,
The Knight

[ 31. October 2002, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Knight Templar ]

 

Knight--one thing--this is not "MY" or Erichs forums--its Everybodys forum.

Now as this forum was built on a collection of things and events that eventually became known as WW2, thats what I CHOOSE to talk about. Personally--I have a big dislike for politics--I cant stand them--im NOT interested in them and I dont like to get into discussions about politics--its a waste of time that which I would much rath er be contributing something very useful here that others like to see and learn from.

Its psrfectly fine by me for you to have your own topic--everybody has to have SOMETHING that makes them shine--maybe politics is something that is just for you.

Yes I do my duty as an American--and I vote in EVERY election. Therefore--as I do vote--I DO have the right to make a complaint--to gripe about an issue--etc. I am a tax payer, I dont like paying taxes like everyone else--but I pay my taxes and dont grumble about it.

As far as I know--there has NOT been any single one person on these forums that in ruder terms (have told you to shut up) I certainly have not.

I also respect your right to post something here--whether I agree with it or not. If you participate in other parts of these forums--ill be trying to answer questions or participate in those threads--but I will not do so in political threads if they become a Circus.

And the last part about the Masons stuff--I Totally AND Fully do not agree with that--thats just another "old Wives Tale" or "Urban Legend" someone has been able to correlate something to do with the Masons that are of letters printed on our currency--only because in that persons strange and twisted mind, it actually made sense. there was another one of these "Old Wives tales" that came from I think a $20.00 bill, fold it a certain way and supposedly you see the burning towers or pentagon--all I ever said to that was OH .....BROTHER. And I rolled my eyes.

If our money is now to do with a vile purpose--please send me all you can spare--I need it to pay for Medical Bills.

Again--I respect your opinion, I will NOT thrust mine down your throat. A wise man once said: "You do what you want to do"

 

My forum ? ! Hmmmmmmm interesting thought.....nah, don't think so ! Sorry, I've got my sleeping bag at another forum out of Europe. To each is own K, both you and Carl are correct, WW 2 is made of many things, some political, some with mens blood stained hands and machinery.......
As for Free fire zone I've made my point clear and the web-master sees it otherwise. It's his call as he owns the site. I do not see how FFZ adds to a site called WW2 as many posts are not WW2 related, but so be it.....

E

 

knight, all im asking is to keep things civil. I get many emails complaining about postings made--im tiring of having to deal with the complaints caused by one person. Im going to ask Otto to "pull the plug" on the nonsence postings made on politics.

Political postings are fine but--WHY dont you post SOMETHING about ww2--even id it only is on politics going on at that time? THAT would be useful.

 

C. Evans:
I have one thread in the FFZ, along with the other "World War Two" threads about Halloween, Beer, and Movies. That is the only location on this entire forum where I am now placing posts; aside from the conversation we are having right now. I thought this would be a satisfactory compromise. If you don't think so, I would appreciate your telling me.
The irony here is that I see this as a very important forum. Whenever the USA starts to gear up for war, they trot out the WW2 imagery for the younger crowd's consumption. This was the "Good War." The Second World War is routinely used to help today's young people get involved in the military and fight our upcoming battles. It is natural, then, that these people would be going through the Internet looking for information on the Second World War--and many would be coming upon this site. All facets of the war are covered here, although political discussions are generally frowned upon. This is very, very disturbing, because these young people are left only with the old stereotypical image of WW2--everyone "pulling together" and donating their frying pans to fight Hitler, Sgt. Rock and John Wayne, episodes of Combat and 12 O'clock High....
This was the way WW2 was understood to be up until 30 years ago. Things are different now. As much as you want to avoid it, the facts are that powerful Americans supplied the Germans with finances and technolgies necessary to fight the war. You can call it "Conspiracy Theory" or try and marginalize the claims by bringing in the Masons or what have you--but you are not going to alter the legitimate information which is out there. The people just getting into WW2 history have a right to know these things. I provided a link on my other thread about a weapons convention which was held in Lebanon this month. Of course, the USA was the largest supplier of arms there. And who do you think was shopping around for the latest weapons systems? Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc. Surprised? You shouldn't be. Edsel Ford was manufacturing tanks and trucks for the Germans in 1940 in occupied France.
Some people argue convincingly that without American technical and financial support, the Nazis would never have been able to wage war. Why would any historian of WW2 choose not to investigate this information? The myths of WW2 are being used to support the myths of modern conflicts; specifically, the present "War on Terrorism."
Finally, I would like to comment about the romance with German militarism which is so prevalent on this site, and how it underscores a fundamental misunderstanding about the armed forces. I have no great admiration for the Wehrmacht during WW2. Any soldier who did not know what the Nazis were about was simply a fool, any soldier who did know what the Nazis were about and continued fighting for their cause was comlicit in their evil plans. You believe that the German soldiers can be judged simply as soldiers, who had no political responsibilities to answer to. Soldiers are merely "tools" who obey the orders of supriors, and so, their actions transcend the ethical categories used to judge everyone else. Well, Carl, with all respect, I must say that in the modern world of 2002, that argument just does not hold water. Soldiers do have responsibilities beyond the demands the military makes upon them. Soldiers have a responsibility as human beings to divorce themselves from actions which support an evil purpose--especially if these actions involve killing people. If you think I'm making a big deal about something quite unimportant, I am not. There is a good chance of us going to war again, and this argument will be played out in households all across the country. At the same time, our political leaders will be regailing us with stories and images of the 2nd World War. Bush has already compared himself to Churchill several times, and the image of Hitler preparing to invade Poland is frequently used to describe Saddam Hussein. We would be doing our younger people a great service by encouraging them to evaluate the political situation on their own, rather than marching off to war as mindless automatons. Please do not respond with stories about what "great soldiers" the Germans were in WW2 and how they were just following orders. In many ways, The Adolph Gallands, Albert Speers, and Erich Hartmanns, who carried their anti-Naziism on their sleeves--but continued to work and fight for them--were monumental hypocrites and the worst role models imaginable for today's young people.
Finally, I would like to quote Friederich, who pointed out that if you don't approve of what I have to say, you can just scroll down the thread.
You, more than once have actually questioned me as to what I believe, only to report me afterwards for violating the spirit of the forum (or whatever....) If you don't like what I have to say, Carl, then why would you be prodding me at all?
You think my postings are "nonsense?" Do I make comments about your ardent support for Beer and Movie discussions in the FFZ? Those aren't nonsense? Please.
You are right in that political discussions generate arguments. This is because the subject matter is important. People are not going to get into heated discussions about what guns were on the Fw-190: because it's not that important.
I hold no personal grudges toward anybody on this forum and always enjoy a few rounds with Crazy, Ron or Andreas (each one of whom has pointed out errors in my arguments, I might add.)
So, then, I am going into self-imposed exile on the FFZ, on one thread... if that is a problem, please let me know.
Respectfully submitted,
The Knight

 

C.Evans:
On an unrelated matter, I never got the poster of the Red Baron which I won in September's trivia contest. Perhaps it got lost in the mail?

 

This is the problem, Knight. This a World War 2 forum. If you are only going to post on a thread about modern politics, maybe this is not the right place.
And if you disagree with the entire direction of this forum... again, probably not the right place for you then.

Look at that "political cartoon" you posted on your thread... no comments, no nothing, just a political cartoon that is obviously VERY Anti-American.
What was the point of posting that? If you can give me a reason other than to piss people off, I'm all ears!

You spout all this high and mighty stuff about all these "important" things, talking to everyone as if we are all ignorant... You essentially tell all of us that we are being ignorant...

Have you stopped to question your own credibility at all?
You constantly refer to "the facts"... and yet, when asked, you have consistently resorted to more vague generalizations. Or "facts" from Mad Cow Publications.
What do you expect in response?

 

Crazy:

Are you following any of this at all?
Because, if you're not, then you're just muddying the waters.
I have been told in no uncertain terms that World War Two discussions on this forum are not to be political. That's fine. I stated early on that I am not about to change the character or course of this forum, but I did say why I think the discussion of WW2 is very important these days--that politicians distort the history of the war to sell their policies.
Carl is calling Otto now to get "the plug pulled" on me for submitting "nonsense" political posts.
Eric disagreed with my politically incorrect views about Israel and wrote Otto to have "the plug pulled" on me, too. I find it a little disappointing that people will challenge my sources, argue with me (it takes two, after all) and when they get their knickers in a knot, go running to Otto to get me thrown off the forum.
Are you on the committee, too... the one which decides which posts are nonsense and which are not? I started a thread to discuss the DC Sniper story. It's been up for only three days and already people are sending e-mails back and forth to get it pulled. The topic has stayed on course, and I've posted some very good source material. But are you interested in any of that? No. You're offended by a cartoon of all things. You and Carl insist on misreading my statements when I say that the American politicians do not repreent the interests of the American people, and that being "American" does not imply a slavish obedience to our political masters. I think the people who run this country are basically dishonest and cannot be trusted. You two react like you've never heard of such a thing before, as if everyone trusts our politicians to speak the truth and look out for our interests.
The political cartoon is anti American government. I am so exhausted from trying to explain the difference between these ideas that I have to believe you're just pulling my leg at this point. You want to know why I posted that cartoon? It was funny, that's why--and I wasn't the only one who thought so, too.
You accuse me of being unAmerican, and when I go to defend myself, I'm being "high and mighty." That's really too much, Crazy.
And if you think I talk down to people, you are absolutely dead wrong. That's the first really unfair thing you've said to me on this forum.
You say this is a WW2 forum, well, I've posted a lot on World War Two.
I'm 44 years old. The first book I read was Luftwaffe in the Ballantine series. I bought all the Avalon Hill games as soon as they came out, starting with Tactics II and Blitzkrieg. When Kelly's Heroes came out, I went to the theater 14 times to see it. I played Afrika Korps with Airfix soldiers, built all the plastic models. I was 12 when I bought the 1st ed. of Green's Warplanes of the Luftwaffe: my most prized possession at the time. I've been through all of that, Crazy. Which isn't to belittle the tanks-and-planes-history of WW2, it's just that I reached the point where I wanted answers to other questions; such as why were these major American corporations found guilty of violating the Trading with the Enemies Act when the war ended. What was that all about?
As far as my credibility--what are you trying to say? That I'm just making this all up? Forget the little stuff, Crazy, alright... Standard Oil sold the Nazis the patent to synthesize gasoline from coal. That's not from some crackpot conspiracy site. The fact that it is indeed true has enormous implications for people writing histories about the war; but, since it doesn't fit into the classic Apple Pie History of the USA, then you must dismiss it outright as pure conjecture. It's the product of vague generalizations, or whatever...
It's only fair to point out that in rebutting MY argumentsyou have failed to cite any--ANY--sources at all. You're like the character in the Monty Python skit who just keeps contradicting the other person's statements.
As far as everything else, our nation is poised to embark on an enormous conflict. It's not all I want to talk about, but it happens to be what I'm talking about now. With all the different threads on this forum, which cover all sorts of topics, you think having one thread on current events--one thread--is inappropriate? And my thread isn't about only current events. I had planned to post some political topics pertaining to WW2 soon; but, for now, I have been interested in the sniper shootings (although, that's already considered old news.)
So, now you're voting to kick me off the forum altogether, as I can only conclude "...this is not the right place for you" can mean. And it doesn't have anything to do about WW2, either. Like Carl, what really angers you is that I dare to disagree with the political leadership of this country. Well, that's too bad; because that's one thing I'm not bending to.
As Americans, we should be ashamed--ASHAMED--of the people now in government. Take a moment to read the foreign press sometime to see how the rest of the world looks on in stunned disbelief at the behavior of George Bush, Ashcroft, Cheney, and the rest of these madmen as they go around bullying and threatening anyone who disagrees with them. If this is all coming down to a contest of who can wave the flag the hardest, then you can count me out.
Disappointed,
The Knight

[ 01. November 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Knight Templar ]

 

For what it's worth, I can't say that I agree with Knight's "money conspirancy" or other things he posts, but I have to admit that he is INFORMED and obvioulsy knows about what he's talking about.

Everybody who has a considerable knowledge on WW II has my utmost respect, even though he disagree with my values, draw the "wrong" (in my view) conclusions, or is totally "misled" (again, to me) or "stubbornly" sticking to his "wrong" POV. As long as he is open for discussion, restrain from ad hominem attacks or personal insults and is acccepting facts and encounter them, I'm fine.

I can't help, but I have the impression that Knight should be banned because he's "befouling his own's nest". If a critical stance on his own country, may it been justified or not, qualifies a forum member to be banned, please count me out, too. I wonder if Knight would receive that fierce flak if he would criticize f.ex. Russia or France in the very same way as he's doing it with the U.S.? I doubt it.

Politics is an essential part of discussing WW II, to me it's more important than discussing the colour of "Ritterkreuze" or how much ammo a MP 38 could spread. Face it today's politics and the world as it is today is also a result of WW II and after all this is the "Free Fire Zone". I don't post too much around here, and I don't complain about extreme views written here.

As for Anti-american (?) cartoons or similar on the "Knight's forum", I can't understand that some here are offended, actually the first with the "preventive family" was quite funny for itself; If others feel offended, so be it. Maybe I'm offended to see forum members posting under the avatars of SS or Nazi leaders or Hitler, who the hell cares?

Cheers,

[ 02. November 2002, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]