American Invasion

It's impossible to say what it would look like with any degree of certainty, far too much has changed in your version of the world. But I must say you are making some very unlikely assumptions in the course of WW II. Like Germany declaring war on Japan; that's a complete 180 degree turn around and very illogical. Also Roosevelt isn't going to accept German help in the Pacific, he doesn't need either German troops or KM warships which were totally unsuited for use in the Pacific. By 1941, Roosevelt was completely and irrevocably opposed to the Nazi regime. And there is absolutely no reason to think Lend-lease aid won't continue to Britain and the Soviets, it will, and Britain (and most likely the Soviet Union) will stay in the fight to the end.

In the mid-1950's assuming both the US and Germany have nuclear weapons, and comparable delivery systems, there certainly isn't going to be any invasion of the US by Germany. The nuclear deterrent is the main reason the Cold War remained cold. Not only that, but Germany wouldn't have enough troops to even begin to try something like that and keep an eye on ol' Uncle Joe at the same time. In any case, in a nuclear exchange, assuming something close to parity in warheads, Germany is at a distinct disadvantage compared to the US because of her geographical size.

My guess is that Germany, or at least the Nazi state, would begin losing cohesion sometime in the latter 1940's. Hitler was in pretty poor health by 1945, and probably wouldn't have been able to hold onto power much longer had he survived the war. Since there was no succession mechanism for the Nazi's, infighting would have become intense and that alone would weaken Germany. My guess is that the Nazi regime would splinter and that would be the signal for the Soviets to invade, no telling what might happen at that point.

 

That is something to consider. Germany declaring war against Japan is a good speculative point to enhance a what if. I would even concede that's it's feasible for Hitler to do such a thing if he had considered the political ramifications of declaring war with the US.
With Germany siding with the US against Japan, Roosevelt would no longer have any justification of going against Germany. He would also be forced to take steps to support a peace treaty between Germany and Britain, something that Hitler would have wanted. End result: Hitler gets his continent and achieves his goal for a short war, one in which the German military was really designed for. Hitler can even claim in one of his usual fiery speeches that war with the UK was a "misunderstanding" and twist things around. Britain, even with Churchill at the helm, would probably politically pressured to accept the German offer with Japan rampaging across the Pacific. Essentially, what did Britain lose in the continent? Germany hasn't really taken any actual major possessions of England. It's the Japanese who are actually doing it.
War with Japan with also play into the race issue of Whites against the Japanese and it would be easy for Hitler to make such a claim, which would appeal to the subconscious instincts of many, even those who should know better.
With these things in Hitler's pocket, he would be in a better position for launching his attack on Russia.
However, this is where I have to point out that in such an event, Japan and Russia might be forced to become reluctant allies. But they won't be efficient allies given their history.
Flash forward to the 1950's TA described. I would have to side with Devilsadvocate view. The presence of nuclear weapons would be a deterrent to both sides. There probably won't be a round two because the memory of the casualties of the war would still be too fresh.

 

Terry, I think you are missing this piece of information, which makes all the sense.

German Moon Base Alpha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_UFOs
http://www.members.tripod.com/uforeview/naziufo.html

That was all they needed, but as usual, too few, too late.

 

I find this possibility quite implausible and unconvincing. Granted, Hitler was capable of some stunning about-faces, and deceitful actions, but to think that he would do something like declare war on Japan, one of only two significant allies, and in the face of a virtual undeclared naval war with the US in the Atlantic, not to mention Roosevelt's implacable enmity, just does not make any rational sense. By doing so, he would destroy any credibility he had in an international sense and would earn the distrust of virtually every country in the world, ally and enemy alike. Hitler would not be able to avoid the Atlantic confrontation with the USN simply by not venturing too far west in the Atlantic. The conflict there with the USN was not provoked by Hitler, but by Roosevelt's animosity toward the Nazi's. WW II truly was as much a war about ideologies as it was about geography

It's equally implausible that Roosevelt would acknowledge Germany a an ally. During WW II, Thailand, at the urging of the Japanese, declared war on the US, but the Thai ambassador in Washington refused to deliver the declaration document to the US State Department. Roosevelt therefore chose not to acknowledge the declaration of war and refused to ask Congress for a counter declaration; the US never declared war on Thailand. Roosevelt would have a very good argument for declining to recognize Germany as an ally against Japan. First of all, Germany could do little to fight Japan with it's tiny navy engaged in Europe and totally unsuited for operations in the Pacific. And the US didn't need German troops in the Pacific, it needed logistics shipping and trained amphibious units, neither of which Germany possessed. The US would not need Germany's help in defeating Japan and Roosevelt would know that to accept Germany's help as an ally would tie his hands in Europe. Roosevelt was completely opposed to the Nazi regime and would see Hitlers act for the political ploy it was. It's just not going to happen in this universe.

Japanese rampaging across the Pacific? Not if the war in Europe is being resolved as postulated. The Pacific war will be very short if the US can concentrate all of it's power against the Japanese. In fact, it's unlikely the Japanese will even try to take on the US in such circumstances. It's more than likely that the Japanese will see a different route to the expansion of their empire, one involving negotiation and subversion of the nationalist movements in the European colonies which are bound to be given a spectacular boost by British, Dutch, and French defeat in Europe.

Changing aspects of the war in Europe will have significant and largely unpredictable consequences in the Pacific, and the US will react accordingly to protect it's vital interests. These interests most definitely were NOT perceived as allowing Nazi Germany or militarist Japan to continue to exist in a post-war world., so Roosevelt will do nothing to enable that outcome.
in a post war world.

 

For the US Invaded enthusiasts

 

Being fairly new to the board, thanks (I think?) JC!

Okay, I admit I read the whole thread, despite the premise being even more preposterous than the air raids on the US during WWII thread that got me here. One question I would like to throw out, though. There was some discussion here of the inherent firepower of the US civilian population being a deterrent to land invasion of the US. Although OT, didn't the USSR during the Cold War do an analysis of a land invasion of the US and come to that vary conclusion? And for all I know this was another urban legend, but I do recall hearing that at some point the Soviets came up with a scenario that got them on continental US soil, but they concluded that the sheer volume of privately owned firearms would prevent them from ever gaining control of the populace.

 

I don't know about it being an urban legend one way or the other but, the American populace is very well armed. Back in 1940 it was still legal to buy virtually any gun by mail. While automatic weapons were not to be legally purchased without a special license, almost anything else could be: Including antitank rifles! On top of this many towns had memorials and other stuff like that containing WW 1 ordinance shipped back to the US by individuals and the military.

I don't know what the numbers were in 1940 but today there are over a quarter million machineguns in private hands in the US. Who knows how many automatic weapons and literally millions of rifles, shotguns, and pistols. On top of this someone might have a mortar or artillery piece in their collection.
Today there are hundreds of tanks, armored cars, APC's and who-knows-what in private hands too. I've seen one local collection few people know about. The guy has a fully restored and working M16 halftrack, a DUKW, a Dodge Command car, dozens of jeeps, several mechanical mules, among other military vehicles.
Of course, in 1940 the US population also had more private motor vehicles than the German army had motor vehicles of any kind. So, not only would the populace be heavily and well armed, know how to use their weapons, but would likely have equal or better mobility than the invaders.
It is not a recipe that bodes well for any potential invader.

 

LOL. You know, it was several years ago that local law enforcement busted somebody, for what I don't recall. The local news made a big deal about the guy's "arsenal", which BTW was all completely legal. My buddies and I laughed, because all of us had more in our individual gun rooms than this guy's scary "arsenal". Oh well, I guess if my house is ever raided (for what reason I don't know), maybe I'll officially have an arsenal too!

Well, thanks for your response. I might have to go on a search and see if I can find any substantiation to that Soviet rumor I recall.

 

for germany to have any possibility of invading the united states here is what would have to happen

1. Germans capture Moscow in Oct 1941 and Russia capitulates by latest Jan 1942
2. Japanese attack and successfully hold Hawaii and all islands
3. Air control is captured by Germans
4. U-boats blockade the Brits
5. Operation Sealion goes back into effect in 1942-43 and beachhead established
6. The entire British Isles are captured by the end of 1943
7. Germans invade Iceland and Greenland and establish bases for which to invade Canada
8. Germans invade Canada and from there hope to invade U.S.

while the Germans do all of this, the Japanese have to harass the West Coast and Alaska plus capture and hold all other island territories

 

Ok, how are they going to achieve all this?

 

Japan and Germany couldn't take the US, simple as. It is purely a question of scale, neither country had the manpower to take the US whilst simultaneously looking after the areas they held in Europe.

 

Looks like someone didn't take the time to read the whole thread . Logistics alone is the bane of "WhatIf?"'ers and videogamers. But anything is possible in a video game isn't it?

 

I'm going to get my wellingtons, the bullsh!t level is raising alarmingly.

​

 

JD, don't be so harsh, all he has done is posted a list of 8 things he thinks would need to happen for an invasion of the US to have any chance of success. That is fair, I would say most of those 8 things would be essential to an Axis victory in the US. Of course 7 of them are nigh on impossible, but that is pretty much the point.

So effectively it is a fair statement, a list of 8 things the Axis failed to do ergo a list of reasons it didn't happen

 

You are right. Its just a wish list. With nothing to back up how the Germans or the Japanese would be able to attain these goals. Anyone can make a list. I agree with Tomcat. HOW? I eagerly await his response as to how they would be able to attain what he has listed. Especially logistically. There are a few good posts here as to why either Japan nor Germany could be able to. His list does not take into account quite a few factors that have already been pointed out.

 

1. Germans capture Moscow in Oct 1941 and Russia capitulates by latest Jan 1942
Just imagine all the troops that would be required to handle the occupation and the logistics to keep them supplied and in control of the land that they occupy?
2. Japanese attack and successfully hold Hawaii and all islands
How would they go about this logistically?
3. Air control is captured by Germans
They never had control over Britain in the first place. How would they gain control after losing the BoB?
4. U-boats blockade the Brits
How would they be able to do this? Espcially after the US enters the war? Where is the US and Royal Navy?
5. Operation Sealion goes back into effect in 1942-43 and beachhead established
They couldn't pull it off it in 1940. How would they have done it in 42-43 with the US forces also in Britain? Where is the US and Royal Navy? How would they have done it logistically?
6. The entire British Isles are captured by the end of 1943
See above
7. Germans invade Iceland and Greenland and establish bases for which to invade Canada
How logistically? Where is the US and Royal Navy?
8. Germans invade Canada and from there hope to invade U.S.
See above

"while the Germans do all of this, the Japanese have to harass the West Coast and Alaska plus capture and hold all other island territories "

How logistically? And where are the US forces at this time? Army, Navy and Air Corps? Are you assuming that the whole industrial and military might of the US that has already been gearing up for the war would just be standing by? That if by some teeny tinyest sliver of a chance that either country made it to the North American mainland safely and after being attacked by the US Navy and Air Corps and other Allied forces that the US would not be prepared?

 

i never said it was remotely possible. that is what had to happen

the only feasible one of those 8 things was the first one

you points are valid JC, and i completely agree why my plan would not work, but hey, if any of our plans would have worked, they would have been implemented

my whole "what if" requires Germany to be more powerful than the U.S. and U.K. combined, which it was not. just a thought, thats all

 

Yupper, there were two chances of that first one being possible, slim and none.

 

Really?

Originally Posted by PanzerVI
for germany to have any possibility of invading the united states here is what would have to happen

Originally Posted by PanzerVI
i never said it was remotely possible. that is what had to happen

 

Even if the Germans manage to miraculously capture Moscow, Stalingrad, and Leningrad, they still have the rest of the red army and its industry in the rear to worry about. And their offensive power would have been sapped anyway. (as it was already by Winter 1941). And as we know, just attempting to take Stalingrad broke the back of the Heer.