zwingli

I am new to this forum and was directed here by Robin Riley, webmaster of the 156 Sqdn. website.
I am wondering if anyone can provide the odds of survival for bomber crews and pathfinder crews from approximately November 1943 to December 1944.

Many thanks

Leslie Zwingli

 

ah this may not be what you expect but ................ how can there be a % of loss ? would anyone know. guess a person could try their best and make an analysis by retrieving archivs from every RAF heavy bomber squadron and make an overall comparison but the time allotment would be quite extensive even during the time frame you propose

all I could say in this regard was good luck, with the LW devising the upward firing 2cm Schrägwaffen the chance could not be good from an RAF crewmans standpoint. Obviously much better in 1945 with less and less LW night fighter activity present

E `

 

The general figure would be around 50 percent for the 1944 period. This figure was not told to the crews otherwise they would never have signed up. The figure is debatable whether comprising Mias and pows because some of these returned after 1945, others didn't and some MIAs were in fact pows, others evaded and although thye returned safe, they did not go on ops again. Others were wounded several times, so were thye accounted for twice etc.. ? On the whole 50.000 bomber command airmen were lost during WWII.

 

Skipper you mention general rule...........is this from the Archiv's or references ? am real curious as I tired way back in the 1960's to gather info's just on how many RAF heavies were lost %'s and then in went Mossies and other low flyers, etc. In regards to my cousins victory claims and his demise with the LW NF force. ~ some 7300 Allied a/c both night and day are confirmed shot down by the LW NF's, who knows on the Flak and of course the many odd accidents befalling the barve RAF crewmen.

chances that a LW NF with SM from mid August 43 till end of 44 was going to get you was real strong

 

My book states over 55,000 bomber crew died and using the average figure of 7 men per bomber you get 7,857 bombers lost.
It also says during the offensives of 1943-1944 less than 25 out of 100 would survive their tour of 30 operations.

From "A Thousand Shall Fall" by Murray Peden A very good book on life as a bomber pilot in the RAF.

 

you guys are proving my point on % speculations and sadly the quotes used are causing a rise in the numbers ............ I've been in contact with so-called experts on the % rates of loses of crews and A/C of the 8th AF heavy bombers. there is no complete pictured answered, too many derivatives, plus too many references

 

The British do know how many bombers came out of the factories and they would know how many they had left at the end of any day per squadron. They would also know how many pilots and crews were in Bomber Command during the war and how many survived, so put the two together and you can get the numbers. All you have to do is set the values for how you want your numbers to look like, such as only killed on operations, killed in training, killed testing an aircraft, killed in a ground accident, wounded and later died, lost due to lack of moral fiber, landed in Sweden, ect. ect.

If you just make it all bombers lost during the war to all causes, the number should be easy to get.

 

I added conditions and said it was debatable. But if you make an average of Slips figures you"ll get the ones I read. Chorley says 55.000 thousand by the way. In a nutshell figures run from 50.000 to 59.000.

 

Leslie

Welcome to Forum, bit of a baptism of fire?

The posts so far do not seem to be answering your question, i.e. the COMPARABLE loss rate between Pathfinder Crews and other bomber Squadrons?

For the benefit of others I will post the answer from my forum:

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As you would expect, I only have stats for 156 Sqn, see

Perio01 - Crew Losses by month

Perio01 - Sorties by month

A very subjective question actually, as it depends during what period you were flying. As you can see, from Dec 43 to Mch 44, the so called Battle of Berlin, was an extremely dangerous period.

To add more complexity to any comparison you need to take into account the targets being attacked. Some groups had a harder target set than others.

When I get a chance I will do a chart by target, I already know which target will head the list though viz: Berlin.

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So guys what of the COMPARATIVE figures, was it more dangerous to be in PFF force?
Logic tells me that it was, but I have seen some fairly horrific stats from other Squadrons.

Given that the PFF were better trained and probably better equipped, did that offset the additional dangers that they faced.

The losses in some of the Halifax and Stirlings in 3 & 4 Group in 1943 were horrendous.

So..........



Robin 156 Squadron = Pathfinder Force

 

True , most crews wanted to fly in a Lanc, but they were not available for all. Worse some squadrons, such as the 300 Polish squadron, were given the old beat up Lancs with less material than others. The Wellinton losses were high. I wonder if there are any Mnachester figures available depiste the small number amount of lost aircrafts of this type.

 

ah re-read her question again 156th, she asked the bomber crew looses for both not on a separate basis. I still see much too high a disparity in losses in the 50,000 range.

no matter we can argue all we want, in true regards it was ghastly

well I hope she returns for comment(s) and have her father pop on with his first person thoughts a we have all had the pleasure of the Campbells

 

Now we're talking Erich, nothing is better than a first hand testimony.

 

yes then we can help research into his background missions and then ........... ? well it's all about understanding and helping in return

 

Thank you all for your comments. Perhaps my question was not clear however these are some stats I have received from another forum post.

125,000 flew with Bomber Command, 55,573 were killed.

Survival rate with bomber command was about 14 operations, and with Pathfinders about 7.

Other information, apparently compiled after the war were basically that out of 100 airmen, 51 would be killed on operations, while a further 9 would be killed in Britain, while training, taking off and/or landing/returning from ops.

Kind regards

Leslie

 

I am curious Leslie what the 7 for the Pathfinders is based on ? due to combat losses, i.e. Night fighters or most probably Flak ?

 

Hello Erich

I would say likely due to all three. The reason for the heavier losses, according to my father was that the Pathfinders were required to fly straight and level into the target for about 5 minutes, regardless of ground defenses, flak, night fighters etc. which made them a far easier target.

 

let me throw in a short comment.....yes I agree,

the LW NF veterans I have interviewed of course were well aware of the Pathfinder duties and tried to seek them out. In all due course upon the excellent RAF crews this was not achieved in 90 % of the cases. the LW crews had to deal with RAF bomber formations if we want to call them that as they came upon them via ground and airborne radar control, generally speaking somewhere in the middle of the route, sometimes tail end as the bomber stream came into Germany or left the target area for home

 

Erich, that also coincides with information my father has given me. He also said you had to be very aware of the Lancasters around you as on occasion, the LW would put a captured Lancaster back into the bomber stream. He stated it was not uncommon to be followed home to England by fighters and actually be shot up as you were in the stream for landing at home base.

I have also posted a reply to the newcomers site with respect to comments regarding my father providing first hand accounts.

Regards

Leslie

 

Leslie as you are welcomed heartedly by our little band of members may I ask if it is possible and not wishing to detract from your forthcoming work on your father, may we hear from him/you on his last mission during the night he was shot down by the NJG 1 Bf 110G-4 pilot........... ?

I for one am really interested in his thoughts of this encounter on the night of the August 1943 mission. Dr. Boiten is a marvelous resource of which you cannot go wrong..........let me edit this question

read the item of being shot down on 156th sq web-site. So Leslie doe your father think or did he think at the time it was the crew from the Ju 88G that took his Lanc out ?...pointed at the bottom of the story page

E ~