German Panzer Divisions 1941-1945.

This topic is intended to show how the armoured fists of the German Army were almost exclusively destroyed and defeated in the eastern front, showing the operational efficiency and power of the Red Army.

Panzer Division/Eastern Front/Western Front/Mediterranean Front
</font>

• 1st/ 41-45/</font>
• 2nd/ 41-43/43-45</font>
• 3rd/41-45</font>
• 4th/41-45</font>
• 5th/41-45</font>
• 6th/41-45</font>
• 7th/41-45</font>
• 8th/41-45</font>
• 9th/41-44/44-45</font>
• 10th/41-42/42/43</font>
• 11th/41-44/44-45</font>
• 12th/41-45</font>
• 13th/41-45</font>
• 14th/41-45</font>
• 15th/ / /41-43</font>
• 16th/41-43; 44-45/ /43</font>
• 17th/41-45</font>
• 18th/41-45</font>
• 19th/41-45</font>
• 20th/41-45</font>
• 21st/45/44/41-43</font>
• 22nd/41-43</font>
• 23rd/42-45</font>
• 24th/42-45</font>
• 25th/43-45</font>
• 26th/ / /43-45</font>
• 27th/43</font>
• 116th/ /44-45</font>
• 130th Panzerlehr/ /44-45</font>
• Großdeutschland/41-45</font>

All units are listed with their complete career from 1941 till the moment they surrendered, were destroyed or disbanded.

 

Here are the rest:

Panzer Division/Eastern Front/Western Front/Mediterranean Front
</font>

• 1st SS/41-42; 43; 43-44; 45/42-43; 44-45/43</font>
• 2nd SS/ 41-42; 43-44; 45/42-43; 44</font>
• 3rd SS/41-45</font>
• 5th SS/41-45</font>
• 9th SS/44/43-44; 44-45</font>
• 10th SS/44; 45/43-44; 44-45</font>
• 12th SS/45/43-45</font>
• Hermann Göring/44-45/ /42-44</font>

This shows not only that Waffen SS Panzer divisions were the ones more frequently transfered during the war, but that only FOUR German Panzer divisions between 1941 until 1944 exclusively fought the Western Allies…

The grand total is:

Panzer divisions that faced the Western Allies in 1941-1945: 16
Panzer divisions that faced the USSR in 1941-1945: 34

[ 14. June 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

Excellent study!

 

Nice study Herr General!

However to determinate the efficiency, shouldn’t you also find the ratio between forces (just an idea!)

Best Regards,
Clausewitz

 

Dont understand how that proves Red Army efficency if you have no losses from the other side or the ratio of percentage losses per theatre.

Thus although smaller numbers may have served in the West they may have suffered a higher percentage loss rate. This would make the west more costly in percentage terms...

Will have a look at Zetterlings comparison of East vs West tonight...

 

I have to say I didn't find Fried's original post too clear...

RB, exactly what book are you referring to?

Cheers,
M!

 

Za,

Zetterlings book Normandy has an article on the comparison of the Normandy fighting to fighting on the Eastern Front.

Will read it up tonite, but I think he basically says that in terms of percentage loss rates, Normandy was worse then the Eastern Front.

But I may be wrong, its along time since I read it!

Will read it tonite and post later...

RED

 

had a quick look and not sure...

It states that more losses occeured on the East, that more vehicle losses occured in the West and that more Germans would have surrendered in the West.

Will have a proper read of it...

 

I don't recall any comparative armored battle on the Eastern Front to the armored actions between the Germans and US around Avaranches and Nancy for example. In these battles the Germans had a numerical advantage in most cases in terms of armor yet, got literally shot to pieces repeatedly by their US counterparts.
In fact, it seems a rarity that German armor did well in the West except in isolated tactical cases and then usually because one or two of their tank aces happened to be present. This is hardly descriptive of the Eastern Front where the norm was large Soviet losses regardless of what German panzer unit was fighting.

 

Very nice study! All good information....

There were also a lot more casualties on the Eastern front b\c of the Russian's hate for Germans. The Germans would not usually surrender to the Russian's by choice b\c they would be killed. The Russians showed very little mercy when dealing with POW's. However, on the Western front they were lining up on highways to surrender to the Allies.

 

Have read some interesting bits...

Will add them later!

RED

 

Thanks, RB, right off the bat I can accept the Russians were somewhat better at dying than the Western Allies, by looking at casualties suffered.

We'll say more when come up with your figures. Meanwhile I'll be looking for Glantz online book that may be interesting here.

 

Za,

cool, you check Glantz, I will have a look at Zetterling and Ellis. I think I have divisional losses for all theatres somewhere... But unsure of the reliability of my Soviet figures...

RED

 

Quote:

" where the norm was large Soviet losses regardless of what German panzer unit was fighting"

The 'norm' on The Eastern Front was large German losses. The bulk of the German panzers were smashed here and in terms of numbers there is simply no comparison between the two fronts.
Whilst we may read of the mythical 20+ Russian tanks destroyed by every panzer the figures for tanks produced show that this ratio was physicaly impossible.
The Russians took a little time coming to terms with the new style of warfare but they soon mastered it and tore the heart out of the German Army. No one country won the war on its own but the Soviet Union can claim to have done the most.

 

Well lets not turn this thread into 'Did the USSR win WW2?'...

M Kenny do you have any sources for losses by antagonist per theatre? Maybe we can build up a picture of German armour losses over the war or at least for the late war period? I guess that the figures for the last year of the war are going to be unreliable at best...

Will get to posting up an outline of Zetterling and Ellis' findings today...

 

How can you say this 'study' is not representative?

Just form the idea that 34 German armoured divisions —approximately 8.500 armoured vehicles and 408.000 men— faced the Red Army from 1941-1945 and that this huge force was entirely destroyed during these years of fighting. Because none of these units, when withdrawn from the eastern front and re-deployed ever got out in one piece.

We all know the answer…
And figures may be even higher, because these Panzer divisions were destroyed several times, encircled or just bled to death fighting.

 

Some figures I picked out from Zetterlings book...

Missing in Normandy = 69%
Missing on Eastern Front = 20%

He states that German troops were more willing to surrender to the Western Allies... He also suggests that the shortages of fuel and transport were more of a problem in the West and made retreat difficult.

Normandy Vs Bagration

German losses in the East

26,361 killed
109,776 wounded
262,959 missing

Greater than the Losses suffered in the West in the Summer of '44. He also remarks that more divisions were completly destroyed in the East.

German armour losses ALL fronts 1st June to 31st August 1944...

2,366 tanks
1,684 SPGs

He also notes a lack of organic repair units in the West, over half the German Armoured Regiments in Normandy lacked their repair companies. Thus tanks would have to go to rear workshops rather than repair near the front.

An example on the Eastern Front...

After Op Citadel there were 135 Panthers in the East. Only 19 were operational, while 74 were at repair workshops belonging to their units. 15 had been sent to Germany for repair and 27 to the facility at Dnepropetrovsk.

He states that fewer 'frontline' repair facilities were available in the West and tanks would have to be sent to rear areas for repair.

He also writes... "another important factor was that many of the German armour formations in the West were units depleted after sustained combat on the EAstern Front".

Losses on Eastern Front until May 1944.

751,237 Killed
2,824,807 Wounded
541,043 Missing

His final comment sums it up...

"Since France was a backwater for years - while violent battles were fought on the Eastern Front - few vehicles were sent to Western Europe".

Will add more in a few days, off to the South for a few days, hope to visit the German Cemetary in Wexford...

ZA,

Guess you know why Im the RED Baron now... Im getting more Soviet every posting...

 

I'm glad you're seing the light, Mike.

 

Hehehe, you don't want to know my alias in the Yahoo Spearhead group

Then you'll like this:
http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf (Fried, this is the PDF I told you about a few weeks ago)

Careful, it's a 8Mb or so PDF. This gives a fine overview of East Front (one of these days you'll start writing Great Patriotic War ) battles we don't normally hear much about, plus in each chapter you get summary numbers in East and West Fronts, allowing some interesting comparisons. For one example compare El Alamein to Op. Mars and Stalingrad, it's a totally different show!

Another example:

Of course my intention is not to disparage the Allied ground effort, but we should not do the converse error and take the parochial view by overlooking the magnitude of the effort on the East Front.

One of the reasons sometimes we read statistics on panzer numbers in the E. and W. fronts and we read surprisingly low figures on the E. Front, has it occurred to you that the figures should indeed be higher, were it not for the rest having been ground down, and not always by Soviet mice eating the wiring. When you read about PzDivs. having 20 tanks only, the rest are not all malfunctions, they're damn frigging combat losses

RB, what's the exact title of this Zetterling book?

[ 27. July 2004, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodina ]

 

Wow, someone hit a "vein." LOL, very good comparison. It's easy to go with the norm, and the blatent public view that I have always grown up with, Western front had more publicity. But a good read nevertheless.

thx
v\r TRB