it seems we are getting a few of these young boys here aren't we! hehehe, adolph jr. hehehe good one Skip!
Those atrocities committed by the Germans were only products of total war. If you think the idea of total war is wrong, blame Clausewitz.
I stand by the post above you joseph jrs. Speaking of Ike, now there was a systematic starvation of Germans. Hey hop, even bomber (butcher)Harris took heat for Dresden. All you that condone such tactics are just as bad as the pol pots, stalins,mao's etc. And the Germans were not repremanded? True they were put to death. It was an order by your hero stalin to rape murder and do whatever they wanted to do. 4000? yea,right. There sure seem to be some good candidates here to go on the list for Tail Gunner Joe! adolph jr. heh heh goodn!
My own grandfathers brother returned in 1954. He had only one leg and one eye, due to injuries sustained in combat, but had been kept as labour in the Ukraine for ten years anyway. He did not live long after his return, but he had no real quarrel with the Soviets. Treatment had been fair, he claimed, they got the same food as the guards and the same quality of clothes too. He found it hard to argue with the principle that he should rebuild what he had destroyed. He felt really bad about the whole war. Overall he didn't talk much about it.
Murder in battle is one grey area. Murder by machine in cold blood is not. This was a special case, & remains so: Cheers, Adam.
If not so ordered, which cannot be proven, it had to have been condoned, given the large number of occurences.
18mile raised an interesting point and that was the "so called" order by Stalin to rape and murder, that is not true. But interestingly enough i was watching a documentary on the last days of WW2 by the accounts of surviving civillians and they tell of horrific stories of mass rapes by the Soviets and the systematic killing of civillians, the Soviet troops that conducted the rapes were not the front line troops but the many of the follow-up troops which many were the ethnic central-eastern asian troops. It was not until General Bezarin "the hero of Berlin" stamped his authority and in the out come many Soviet soldiers were shot, in one incident about 26 Soviet troops were executed for raping and murdering German civillians. There were heroes and villians on both sides during the war.
Correct, the Red Army didnt exactly greet the population with flowers in their hands but given the circustances, can you blame them? I am not excusing what they did, but I understand why they did it.
This is easier said then done my friend. Afterall, the Germans did not destroy thousands of cities, towns and villages in the United States, nor did they massacre 20 million civilians. Yet hundreds of thousands of German POW's starved to death, execute or were tortured by U.S. troops or guards.
Care to support this slander with sources? Execution and torture MAY have happened, but it would have been on a very small scale in comparison to what the soviets did, and would not have been condoned by leadership. Starvation was widespread in Europe after the war, the U.S. had very little control over that. Eisenhower and German POWs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia That should hopefully clear the rumors about Eisenhower up and put the german pow situation in perspective. And take a look at this TheHistoryNet | World War II | The Not-So-Great Escape: German POWs in the U.S. during WWII Here's a short summary: basically a bunch of German POW's being held in America escaped from their camp, and after they were caught (a lot of them turned themselves in after a few days) their punishment was being put on bread and water rations. Keep in mind this was just a month after the malmedy massacre, when the Americans easily could have justified executing them rather than putting them on slightly worse rations. An interesting note on the bombing of dresden; the most widely accepted claim of civilian deaths is 35,000 which is nearly 10,000 more than the english lost during the entire battle of britain. I've also read a few places that Hitler originally wanted to go strictly for military and strategic targets during the battle of britain, but one of his bombers was off course and unloaded its bombs on a civilian area to lighten its load and then things just kind of escalated from there. This last one I cant verify, but I remember it coming from reliable sources.
British civilian deaths during the Battle of Britain and Blitz were about 43,000. Dresden is currently estimated at closer to 25,000 than 35,000. It escalated before that. In July the Germans mainly attacked in daylight, and killed about 250 British civilians in the month. In the whole of July they flew about 400 night bomber sorties. In August high bomber losses, and the shortage of fighters to escort them, meant the Germans switched a lot of their bombers to night operations. In August they flew over 2,000 night bomber sorties, and the British civilian death toll jumped to over 1,000. On the 19th August, before any bombs on Berlin, Goering ordered a large (100+ bombers) night attack on Liverpool. The Germans had begun the next stage in their plan, which all along had called for attacks on civilian infrastructure like food storage.
'Things just escalated from there'.....that nice Mr. Hitler ! ( ) ( I read somewhere that he loved dogs, too ! )
I think my post might have been miss interpreted. Perhaps this is my fault. My intension was NOT to point a finger at any country and say "look they did it too". I was simply trying to point out the ill feeling for the German soldiers and people by those who have suffered so much under them. Yes, the German soldiers were treated much better in the hands of Americans then they were treated in the hands of the Russians. But the Germans also did not invade the United states destroy the country and massacre 20 million civilians. You are also correct about hunger in Europe which resulted in large starvation of German POW's in the hands of ALL nations which battled the Germans, Russia is included. While the heads of the Soviet Government might have very well been more lenient and understanding of why and what was happening in Germany in the hands of the Russians, they were NOT orders. No people in WW2, suffered as much as the Russians had under the Germans. These men fought through hell, for years, watching their entire world crumble beneath them. They lost everything they ever had, knew or owned. Including families, friend, neighbors, entire cities. Countless of Russian troops were fighting for one thing that kept them going, revenge. Even then the vengeful Russians did not gather entire villages herd the population like cattle into a church and then set it ablaze. In the end, these same men who had lost everything ended up feeding the German population, and providing shelter. None of which were given to the Russians during the Germans visit. I am not excusing what the Russian soldiers had done...... Was it wrong? yes. Was it justifiable? Not sure. Do I understand why they acted in the way they did? Absolutely. It is easier for all of us to judge in retrospect.
another thread going down the long dark tubes.......how about getting back on topic guys, and Dresden deaths numbered about 50,000 plus, the bombings were in the course of more than one night, first hand accts in my little pale hands- the familie ya know, no matter lets keep this on the level gentlemen, atrocities however you want to term it were done up by both sides, regardless out and out torture of the civilian populace to retaliation
