Overlord: Same resourse

But what if the germans had the capabilities of the allied naval, what if the bismarck, tirpitz, sharnhorst, graf spee and and those other battleships, pocket battle ships, and cruisers light and large survived and what if the germans put more time and money into there navy and matched the allied armada, could they have repulsed the allies and destoy there navy or at least wreck it? And what if the airforce matched and although the germans possesed no heavy bombers as such what if they had flight after flight of he 111, and the dorniers, Me 262, 109 and so on could germany had won.

 

Quote(tomcat) A battle tank: armored vehicle having caterpillar traction and armed with machine guns, cannon, rockets, or flame throwers.(end)

but you agree right here with this quote

firepower - armed with machine guns, cannon, rockets, or flame throwers.
protection - armored vehicle
mobility - having caterpillar traction

so there not just my requirements but yours as well so are our requirments wrong of a tank because a tank is a battle tank desrcribed by both my quote and yours. And as for the sp artillery what good is your artillery if it can't see or hit what its aiming at, spotters? not the most reliable targeting info, 'compared' to the gunners eye.

 

That is certainly the most uninformed view of artillery that I've seen. The field artillery of the allies had a maximum range of beyond 10km. Obstructions both natural and man-made meant that most artillery engagements would be indirect. With forward observors artillery could be frightenly accurate.

 

they sure made stupid mistakes, the French expected the Germans to fight them along their WWI trenches and they just went around it! haha.

 

you are completely right however i said compared to the gunners on eye. plus the artillery statement was aimed at 'self propelled artillery' (such as the M7 Priest and sexton) supporting an advance not 155mm field artillery pieces.

 

how about the beginning of the battle of britain moving the convoy's through the channel and the dover straights, just asking for the germans to attack.

 

What WWI "trenches"are you referring to? Do you mean the Maginot line fortifications?

 

I think he means that the french expected a war similiar to the ww1 war of attrition, not fast paced 'blitzkrieg' tactics.

 

yes the Maginot line.

 

You say the German had the best Military off WW2 , but it how you use it that counts

 

The allied Armies did not use only the 155s. They had many different types of Artillery, For example, the 105mm and 25pdr. Oh, What a suprise! These are the Guns mounted on the Priest and Sexton! If you are going to fire over open sights (directly) then whats the point of using a gun that can fire up to 10 miles away? The point of SP artillery is to fire then move away before the enemy batters fire back. Close support is for the assault guns. (e.g-M8 Scott, StuH)
This thread is just getting out of hand.

If the Germans built more ships to match the power of the USN and RN, they would have to have less Tanks and Guns. Whats more the Graf Spee was destroyed a few years earlier, so what effect is that going to have on the Battle? The other German vessels are not going to stand a chance. How is a land power going to win a naval battle with two great Sea Powers?

 

I say, why are we trayng to justify ourselves in the face of a couple of ignorant neo-nazi clowns?

It is the other way around, it is THEY who have to justify their ignorant and misguided views. They have to dance to our tune, not us to theirs.

There is is, in big letters for everybody to see.

What is the matter with this forum, everytime a creep shows up do we all have to go jumping through hoops justifying ourselves? Have we gone PC all of a sudden or what?



And who the hell are these guys to piss on the graves of these soldiers who died fighting the Nazism they so staunchly defend?

 

Your right about that however your one paying attention to what is being said, taking things of of context, look what you said about the graf being destoryed, if you had read the tread i had wrote properly, you would have read that what if she survived, what if they built more ships, like i said this is a what if forum isn't it?

i think maybe you should read threads before replying to them with quotes which have nothing or little to due with anything.

just go back to the original thread with the original question the SAME RESOURECES, meaning land, sea, air, industrial, economy, infrasturture even, everything the same, but commanders. So it would come down to tactics and strategy.

now please read this through before responding

 

first of all im no neo-nazi, they were fools and should never have been left to lead germany, as i said Hitler was an idiot. i'm not even german i just think people see the germans tear them apart beacuse of the holocaust, and then blame every ww2 german for the war. second this has nothing to do with who's right or wrong just the original question.

 

What jews? That side-tracking of a discussion by entering an extraneous factor is an old tactic, I'm not falling for that.

Anyway, I'm not even interested in discussing anything with the likes of you. "Aquila non capit muscas".

Fare thee well.

 

All right then.
IMO the Allies would have their fleet destroyed, and, as they have hardly any ships to evacuate with, tens of thousands of men die.

 

Even if the entire German fleet as actually constructed before and during WW 2 was afloat it would have been no match for Allied sea power. A handful of battleships and smaller surface combatants changes nothing. Also, these ships would have had to transit from whatever base(s) they were at to the invasion site opening them up to air attack and drawing German air resources away from the invasion area to protect them.
As for actually trying to match Allied naval power; the Germans didn't have the resources or capacity to do it. As just one example, the US embarked on a program to build destroyer escorts mainly for ASW work in the Atlantic. These ships were in most cases the equivalent of weak destroyers in the British, Japanese, or German navy. The US originally set the production goal at 1000 vessels actually building nearly 600 in an average time of about 7 months each. British and German yards were taking 18 months to turn out a similar ship.

As for air attacks on naval vessels there are several problems for the Germans. For the most part they lack suitable weapons for this function. Yes, a few of their bombers could use Fritz X and Hs 293 guided bombs and there were a few aircraft capable of taking a torpedo but, these were the exception. Crews were also not trained for anti-shipping work for the most part.
To compound this, by mid 1944 the Allied navies are now regularly using VT fuzed shells in AA fire. If we look at the historical results off Anzio and the battle of Empress Augusta Bay we find that:
1. Bombers using guided weapons in the face heavy jamming will not be successful beyond that of non-guided weapons. This means Fritz X and Hs 293 missiles are largely a wasted effort.
2. Bombers trying to attack shipping and naval vessels conventionally will be shot down or badly damaged in prohibitive numbers while causing few casualties in return.

The Germans also would face a problem in that the Allies possessed far superior technologies and orgainzation in the use of and direction of their aircraft to the Germans. Again, it is not the weapon, but the system in which it is employed, that determines effectiveness. Me 262s are worthless if they are positioned wrongly to stop an Allied attack on a bomber formation. Of course, 262s are worthless in any case in a long term campaign due solely to their horrificly bad reliability that would quickly reduce their numbers to insignificance.

The initative lies with the Allies. That largely determines the outcome of a Normandy invasion unless the Germans can somehow snatch it from them. More forces only make the battle bloodier, not more likely for a German success. Until you can demonstrate a strategy that allows a switch of initiative instead of focusing uselessly on technology and weapons you cannot demonstrate how the Germans can win.

 

Ditto on the above. Even If the Germans entered a cheat code and got a free Navy to match the RN and USN, the only thing it would change is the casualty figures.

 

Sorry. But the Maginot Line didn't consist of WWI "Trenches". There was much more to it then "Trenches". Which is one of the reasons the Germans "went around" it.