most destructive battle of the european theatre

Hi all

just wondering what you all think was the most destructive battle of the european theatre, the battle of berlin, stalingrad, the 1000 lancaster bomber raid, monte casssio? This includes not only civillian losses, but alos military KIA's\MIA's desturction on property, and the surrounding terrain.

my thoughts would have to probably be a toss up between battle of stalingrad (with the destruction not only of the 6th Army but also the city intself) and the battle of kurst (the greatest tank battle ever).

 

................................ Miguel!

Well because I'm a really nice person.


We all know which Battle was the worst & most destructive...

You can ask what we THINK but don't change facts.

IMO one of the worst was "Schlacht um Berlin". Many Children (Hitlerjugend) fought, each house was a trap.. Stalin wanted EACH and EVERY GERMAN because he feared that otherweise they would surrender to the West. Same reason why both sides fought very hard and to the bitter end.

Many SS Soldiers fought also but they never surrendered to the Russians because they knew when this happend that their fate was not sure.

Plus! The "Todesschwadron" that killed everybody that was suspected of deserting. Wehrmacht, SS, Volkssturm & Hitlerjugend they all fought to the bitter end.

Many died in the streets.

Za Rodinu, can tell you more on the Soviet part.

 

As it is you asking, Sturmkreuz, I'll allow myself to be wander into this discussion.

How about Operation Bagration, popularly known as Destruction of Army Group Centre?



OPERATION BAGRATION

Historical Perspective : Deception

TheHistoryNet | World War II | Operation Bagration: Soviet Offensive of 1944

Axis History Factbook: Review - Operation Bagration 1944

Operation Bagration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last but not least:
http://www.ww2f.com/russia-war/20562-operation-bagration.html

 

They claimed to have killed 38,000 Germans and captured 158,000, along with 2,000 tanks, 10,000 guns and 57,000 vehicles.


That's not nothing

EDIT: Since I wanna be nice too (I'll give some links)
The Fall of Berlin, 1945
The Battle of Berlin January-April 1945- World War II Multimedia Database
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/berlin.htm

Counts & Numbers: Some are (very) different:

 

yeah that works as well thats why i included the 1000 bomber air raid in the original post.

 

you are right the 'liberation of germany' was pn a very large scale, you have definately proved. But if you look at the German losses at Stalingrad were staggering. The Sixth Army, under the command of Field Marshal Friedrich Paulus, began its campaign with 600,000 soldiers. On Jan. 31, 1943, Paulus disobeyed Hitler and surrendered. On February 2 the last of his remaining 91,000 troops turned themselves over to the Soviets. The Soviets recovered 250,000 German and Romanian corpses in and around Stalingrad and total Axis losses (Germans, Romanians, Italians, and Hungarians) are estimated to have been 800,000 dead. Of those taken captive, only 6,000 lived to return to their homeland.

that dosn't include the destruction of the city by level bombing, pr the fact that germany no longer was considered invincible.

Plus the Russian losses were estamated to be as high as one milllion men, now thats destructive.

 

On a side note, the numbers for the bombers was in the 900's; several bombers turned back because of problems. Harris had scraped together almost every Bomber in Britain for the task. He even scrounged some of Coastal Command!
As a result, many where not fit for flying.

 

I said, I know which the worst and most destructive battle was.

1 Million surrounded Stalingrad.

IMO after this one is still "Schlacht Um Berlin". Don't look to numbers. That's a very bad thing.

Stalingrad for me is worst why, The German Sixth Army was surrounded, temperatures of -30°C to even -40°C, most Germans Soldier died from Freezing, hunger & thirst. And then the fate of them. I saw Stalingrad (Docu) and then what happend which to who surrendered. There were send to camps (underway almost 1/2 died) in the camps (again almost 1/2 died) those who where alive where send to rebuild things and to work (Siberia -60°C).

That's the reason why Stalingrad the worst (for me & for most others). Next, I look to what/who fought, in what conditions, time & aftermath not to numbers.

 

Stalingrad? Since some estimates place the total number of casualties at 1.5 million.

_

 

Min. 1.5 Million , Max 2.1 Million they don't know, many went MIA or disseapered (Not Joking) AND those who died later (POW of Stalingrad) are also included. They can't put an exact number on it.

But this is in and around Stalingrad. So not the City alone!!

 

When I read the original post, my immediate response was the Battle of Stalingrad. But I also think of the terror bombing campaigns--thousands killed in very, very short periods.

In talking about the sense of horror and destruction, I think of the bombing of Dresden or the bombing of Tokyo.

 

Nothing? Are you sure about that?

In size, scope -- and results -- Operation Bagration, the Soviet offensive of 1944, made the Normandy landings look like a mere scuffle.

"In four weeks, it inflicted greater losses on the German army than the Wehrmacht had suffered in five months at Stalingrad. With more than 2.3 million men, six times the artillery and twice the number of tanks that launched the Battle of the Bulge, it was the largest Allied operation of World War II."

All told, Operation Bagration cost Hitler 350,000 men (including 31 generals), plus hundreds of tanks and more than 1,300 guns

It is also considered ( by many ) to be the most successful operation against the Germans during WW2.

 

Agreed. Normandy was only the biggest amphibious assault on Europe; Bagration made the Normandy invasion look small, considering how many German and Russian soldiers combined were involved, not to mention the casualties.

 

If Bagration couldn't convince hitler that mobile defense was the way to go then nothing would.
By 1944, Russian was like a lion feasting on a dying man. The man was not dead yet, but he could no longer defend himself.

 

Fair enough and good call. Ok what about the losses at kurst as well as the moral factor for the german and russian troops after seeing the final stages.

 

not nothing..

 

Did not find the figures for Monte Cassino but definitely one of the most destructive battles after several months of fierce fighting.

 

I remember my history techer went to St. Petersburg and visited a memorial near a mass grave of Soviet soldiers and civilians who died in the Leningrad siege; more people are buried in that one mass grave than all the americans that died in WWII.

Scary thought.